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  1. #41

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    Given what I know about how sport agency works, what happened 2 years ago during the Orser/Kim break up and IMG's role made alot of sense now, since I used to be a head hunter myself that strategize and plan headhunting ahead of time in another industry. Each deals can take between 3-18 months to materialize subject to the contract in place already, the big deals can takes up to 2 years. I am not saying this is what happened, but it very well might according to my experience.

    Who ever broke this deal, I hope you enjoy your 20%-30%. In big moves like this where there hadn't been an expectations, it is hardly ever about the athletes and their true benefits. The only ones profit from brokering these deals are the sporting agencies and indirectly their placements. If it doesn't work out, great... just move! Another 20% to who ever suddenly is more suitable, and a spot suddenly becomes available where you can fill another one of your candidate in.

    Where there are no supplies, create one. Where there are no demand, create one!

    Be friends with your clients and candidates and make it like you are doing them a favour helping them to grow and make them realise suddenly they need this and also that now they are so and so. End result really doesn't matter. The more moves, the merrier, it is about generating sales leads, and make the sale. Each time a skater changes coach, a spot became available, someone is likely to earn 20% or up to approx. 30% if it is a a proactive hire. The more turnovers the better you can earn, thus successful agencies's candidates are unlikely to stay in the same place for more than 2 years at a time.

    Knows your enemies, knows your benefactors. Your enemies you head hunt from and fill the void with your own candidate. If you can't head hunt, then become friend with them to see if there are potential vacant spots which you can supply. Alot of these are speculative positions and hire will eventually lead to a firm deal and can take time to develop.

    I wonder how much this decision is really up to Hanyu, the poor lad probably had no idea what is going on except do 'what is best' suggested to him and ends up with a weird situation like this. If it doesn't work out Hanyu, don't be afraid to leave early. If you don't stay for more than 3 months the agency are unlikely to get their full fee. Tough luck!! Just don't be a pawn in someone else's game and do what is best for your own self interests and please take care of yourself.
    Last edited by os168; 04-26-2012 at 12:21 AM.

  2. #42

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    the Orser/Kim break up and IMG's role
    Kim (that's where the big bucks were in the duo as far as earning ability) was repped by her mother both before and after the change in coaching. I'm curious not challenging - what is your fact set here? Also, agents don't get 20-30% of anything (I was in a business serving talent agents and managers for many years) - 10% usually of any job they rep you for (there are some arrangements where an agent may provide additional management for certain clients and it's 15%). It's not a head-hunter arrangement where (I assume from what you're saying) one gets a fixed percentage of first year's salary - that's not the entertainment agency biz, it doesn't work that way. So "churning" (which is what you're describing) clients is not in an agent's interest. Again, I'm interested in your facts.
    Last edited by Willowway; 04-25-2012 at 11:59 PM.

  3. #43
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    I am really shocked.

    Hanyu and Abe seemed to have a very close and special bond.

    She's done extremely well with him both technically and in terms of program construction this season.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Nobuo Sato is incompetent when it comes to teaching jumps. Kozuka still can't (most likely, never will) master the quad after four full season's struggles.
    That is rather judgemental.

    Most skaters will never have consistent quads.

    You can't always blame the coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by skfan View Post
    has brian orser notably fixed any skater's posture? i'm asking because i don't know, not trying to be contentious.

    YNK's toe point wasn't fixed, and her jumps already had excellent technique before she arrived. christina gao still hunches her back 3 years into orser's tutelage.
    Gao's PCS skills in general are just .

    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Fernandez's consistency and quality of quad jumps are outstanding. I think THAT is one important reason. Even if Orser can't be given the full credits, there are merits to train with the best quad jumper in the world.
    Fernandez was very inconsistent this season. A quad alone is not enough if you mess other stuff up.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willowway View Post
    Kim (that's where the big bucks were in the duo as far as earning ability) was repped by her mother both before and after the change in coaching. I'm curious not challenging - what is your fact set here?
    Not really... those you are unable to directly profit from, you can exploit their success by head hunting their team for your potential client's interest down the road, even if they are not looking right now. Part of the trick is about relationship building and seeing the needs and supplies ahead of the time, and of course managing expectations with many friendly coffee meetings which are more than just relationship building.

    It is no accident once a company has earned big success getting awards and accolades, they are subject to find their organisation being strategically dismantled by head hunters either by head hunt the entire team, or take them out piece by piece. Skating might be more of a niche market that doesn't have the scale of multinationals, but it is so easy to exploit since there're only so many candidates, so many potential spots and revenue streams, these things need to be planned ahead of time especially everything is per annual season.

    I charge 20% for my level of hire (Senior) but i have known MD CEO level hires were at 30%. 10% is standard for general recruitment. It is a matter of volume business, the more volume, the more candidates the lower fee. But imo at Hanyu's Olympic level expectations from a rich federation in this niche industry where there are limited supply and demand of world class coaches, it is likely to be a proactively hire, the fee is likely to be 20-30%. It is just an speculation. These things are impossible to prove, unless someone would care to volunteer on what is the going rate these days.
    Last edited by os168; 04-26-2012 at 12:09 AM.

  5. #45

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    Not really... those you are unable to directly profit from, you can exploit their success by head hunting their team for your potential client's interest down the road, even if they are not looking right now. Part of the trick is about relationship building and seeing the needs and supplies ahead of the time, and of course managing expectations with may friendly coffee meetings which are more than just relationship building.

    It is no accident once a company has earned big success getting awards and accolades, they are subject to find their organisation being strategically dismantled by head hunters either by head hunt the entire team, or take them out piece by piece. Skating might be more of a niche market that doesn't have the scale of multinationals, but it is so easy to exploit since there're only so many candidates, so many potential spots and revenue streams, these things need to be planned ahead of time.
    It must be me - this argument doesn't appear to work for the sport or the business model. Definitely each to his own point of view though.
    Last edited by Willowway; 04-26-2012 at 12:14 AM.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafter View Post
    But the good news is maybe we'll get less WeirImitation.
    I prefer WeirImitation to MiniOrserClone .

    a really shocking and unexpected coach switch which leaves me somewhat speechless. and unhappy :/...

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post

    That is rather judgemental.

    Most skaters will never have consistent quads.

    You can't always blame the coach.
    ------------------------------

    Fernandez was very inconsistent this season. A quad alone is not enough if you mess other stuff up.
    Kozuka always looks so hesitant going into his Quads, I am amazed that he manages to land some at all.

    And I don't think Fernandez had a bad season. I think he kind of spooked himself. He gets a new coach and - voilà - after a few months with the coach he suddenly skates fantastic programs and is considered the favourite going into Euros.

    I like Orser for Hanyu.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willowway View Post
    It must be me - this argument doesn't appear to work for the sport or the business model. Definitely each to his own point of view though.
    I think headhunting is the more valid model here because unlike talent agencies, these are not open casting hires. What is likely to happen is the headhunter would artificially create a need, and fill it with their sources/contacts, or vice versa. We speculate unavailable people and non existing positions out all the time, just to 'sound' people out, get a feel for the potentials.

    It might not work 1st time, but by 3rd or 4th meeting, an opportunity is likely to come up (not publicly disclosed therefore a level of exclusivity). In sport I wonder how much of it is really down to the management's decision, the athlete's need, or it is really the agent who create the demand.

    In anycase, I thought I'd just weigh in a possible scenario in case anyone is interested, otherwise just call me another crazy fan who's trying to make sense of all this.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB View Post
    I had to smile at you young'uns who weren't around when every promising/almost champion skater 'had' to go to Carlo Fassi to finally reach the pinnacle.
    In Toller Cranston's book, "Zero Tollerance," Toller discusses how he turned down Fassi's overtures to become his coach. Fassi then successfully recruited John Curry ... the rest is history. Fascinatingly, Curry was obviously inspired by Cranston's unique style of skating. In 1976, Curry who hadn't previously had a great deal of success, won the Olympic and World gold medals.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    The rationale was that Fassi could speak many languages and could lobby most of the judges in their own languages and eavesdrop on the rest, something considered extremely important when figures could make or break a skater.
    ...
    Interesting rationale ... Definitely Fassi was a political mover and shaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafter View Post
    But the good news is maybe we'll get less WeirImitation.
    I think Hanyu has his own smooth style somewhat similar to Johnny's graceful way of flowing over the ice -- but I don't see Hanyu's style of movement drastically changing. Hopefully, Hanyu will be able to develop more endurance and maturity, and also learn how to get up quickly and continue skating after a fall, w/o pausing so long and hanging his head.

    IMO, Hanyu is not a Johnny clone. Neither does Hanyu "imitate" Johnny. OTOH, Hanyu has been wearing costumes designed by Johnny, and Hanyu admittedly admires Johnny's skating. Do you think that will change?
    ___________________________________

    I am surprised that Hanyu will be moving to Canada to work with Orser, however as others have mentioned, it is not unusual for Japanese skaters to move abroad for training. Perhaps this move will work in the favor of all concerned, including Javier. The new season already seems set for a number of fireworks in all disciplines.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by skfan View Post
    i just wish i could believe that training with orser is going to improve both yuzuru and kanako murakami's posture, if indeed he is JSF's coach of choice for japan's next generation.
    huh? Kanako? Did i miss something?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by arakwafan2006 View Post
    huh? Kanako? Did i miss something?

    somewhere, maybe here or GS or mao forum, i read that JSF has been wanting to send kanako and yuzuru to a foreign coach, that JSF may have plans to have orser take the role morozov once held.

    BUT more importantly, whose posture has brian orser fixed? me wants to know!

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Yuna Kim wasn't a convincing job of coaching?
    That's exactly what I've been wondering while reading this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Fernandez was very inconsistent this season. A quad alone is not enough if you mess other stuff up.
    Very true, but he certainly improved when he left Morozov and went to Orser.

    My more general response: This is a surprising decision, but I think we'll just have to wait and see how it works out. Hanyu has a lot of raw talent and promise. But the kid is still quite young and often still looks it IMO. Maybe the coach who helps you break onto the scene isn't always the best coach to help you mature.

  13. #53
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    at the photos and headline on IceNetwork with article link on this news!

    I also am at the image of Orser skating (acting out the program) on the sidelines while watching Hanyu . Hanyu's former coach always seemed ready to throw up before Hanyu skated and afterward too whenever Hanyu made mistakes.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 04-26-2012 at 03:14 AM.

  14. #54
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    He will be attending school in Japan and traveling to train with Orser "frequently"??

    And Mariah thought she had a bad commute!

    This schedule seems a recipe for disaster-

  15. #55
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    Most important of all, will Brian let him bring his bear to the boards?

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Fernandez was very inconsistent this season. A quad alone is not enough if you mess other stuff up.
    I'm talking about quad jumps. Fernandez's only "mistake" was the 4S in worlds FS (-1.6GOE). That's one out of 16 attempts. Really amazing! He can "learn" 3A techniques from Hanyu. Hanyu never missed the 3A in this season (21 attempts) and only once in the last season (Japanese nationals FS). In fact, Hanyu's 3A earns more points than Chan's 4T on average.

    Many men lose consistency in the 3A when they practice quads, yet Hanyu seems to be the clear exception. That's something reminds me of Plushenko. Gachinski's 3A is very stable, but his 4T is nowhere close to it. Orser can be proud of his new student. Hanyu has already declared to include the 4S. Fernandez can be a lot of help.
    Last edited by NMURA; 04-26-2012 at 05:14 AM.

  17. #57
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    FYR, I made comparisons of Hanyu and Chan's 4T/3A at 2011-2012 international competitions (in cases of combinations, values of 2T or 3T were extracted, -1 deductions applied when fell on 3A or 4T)

    Hanyu
    4T 10 attempts 4 +GOE average 9.47 points
    3A 15 attempts 14 +GOE (fell on 3A-3T at CoC) average 10.01 points

    Chan
    4T 20 attempts 9 +GOE average 9.33 points
    3A 13 attempts 7 +GOE average 7.51 points

    and Fernandez's 4T/4S
    15 attempts 11 +GOE average 11.42 points

    If Hanyu could obtain Fernandez's quad consistency, he could be quite unbeatable. Chan won't be able to get away with 3-4 falls and still win anymore (save Skate Canada).
    Last edited by NMURA; 04-26-2012 at 06:38 AM.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Fernandez was very inconsistent this season. A quad alone is not enough if you mess other stuff up.
    Quote Originally Posted by ks1227 View Post
    Very true, but he certainly improved when he left Morozov and went to Orser.
    The main improvement was that he finally had good programs, and that's because he went from Morozov to Wilson/Buttle. Fernandez already had the jumps and was quite a good skater; he just needed his PCS to catch up. I don't think he was inconsistent, more like he had an Oda-type season with a really strong GP that got everyone's expectations up, then basically nothing. I can't even call it peaking at the wrong time, because Fernandez needed that strong GP to even be considered a contender. Maybe next year they'll manage it better.

    Orser certainly did a very good job with Yu-Na Kim, but again some of the credit should go to David Wilson. And Kim did have some weaknesses that Orser wasn't able to fix. He strikes me as being really good at instilling confidence and helping skaters with the mental side of their preparation, which is obviously very important - but he's not a magician.

    As for Hanyu, I just don't see what Orser can give him that he doesn't already have. Unless he can figure out a way to work around Yuzuru's asthma and improve his stamina.

  19. #59
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    Some Yuna fans were Not surprised by this news.
    Two years ago, they did even predict exactly that Orser is going to coach Hanyu(or Murakami, Shoji) if he doesn't get Mao. lol.
    Orser's unfinished job with JSF in 2010 was done now finally. End of story.
    Last edited by EricRohmer; 04-26-2012 at 09:42 AM.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post

    If Hanyu could obtain Fernandez's quad consistency, he could be quite unbeatable. Chan won't be able to get away with 3-4 falls and still win anymore (save Skate Canada).
    How are people still making this kind of comments after WTT?

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