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  1. #61
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    does K-O's Carmen include moves from modern dance, in your opinion?

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    i've read that Dean had a big influence on ice dance, like, 'he created what we know as ice dance' or something. is it true? do you think that teams of the 90's copied T/D?

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    Quote Originally Posted by martyross View Post
    i've read that Dean had a big influence on ice dance, like, 'he created what we know as ice dance' or something. is it true? do you think that teams of the 90's copied T/D?
    Copied? Maybe not. Influenced by? Probably. Benefited from how T&D advanced the sport in a few short years? Absolutely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
    Copied? Maybe not. Influenced by? Probably. Benefited from how T&D advanced the sport in a few short years? Absolutely.
    in what ways did the advance it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuge View Post
    You pay your dues in ice dancing work your way up gradually one step at a time unless you're russian
    I can easily list think of non-Russian dance pairs, shooting up quickly though you might argue on their skating skills and if it was justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by zotza View Post
    And my absolute favourite competition is still 1990 Europeans.My fair lady,Missing,U/Z Tango, Zorba the Greek (opa!) and R/K Tango.And the first time I watched ice dancing and got hooked.
    One of my favourite competitions too!

  6. #66
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    it's interesting to see how Russian dance became after the greats. Navka/Kostomarov and Domnina/Shabalin look the same to me. a skating that wants to be grand, but comes off cold or even empty in its virtuosism. dont know if its the COP...i.e., less freedom. and it seems a steady decline.

  7. #67

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    Not to take anything away from great champions Linichuk and Karponosov, but in 1980, a gold medal winning program looked like this. The program was a series of dissimilar dances pasted together to show mastery over all styles. (I must admit I giggled uncontrollably back in 1980 when I saw this great Soviet team segue into what passed for a hoedown dance!)

    Even Torvill & Dean's dance was very traditional. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzeqrQGye_U

    Two short years later, Torvill & Dean ignored the prevailing rules and introduced this program - not traditional dance at all, but a program with a theme and creative, unique moves that supported that theme. Mack and Mabel

    In 1983, they ignored the rules again, and armed with a great deal of research, created together with Barnum star Michael Crawford the remarkable Barnum program. There are moments in this program that they move as two interlocking pieces of machinery, the moves are so complicated. One definitely feels as if they are attending a circus when they watch this. And of course, they shock everyone with the back flip. (As a side note, some of these moves come directly from the stage musical Barnum Incredible!)

    And there was 1984's masterpiece, Bolero. They received criticism for this dance because they used not traditional dance music, but classical music with no discernable dance beat, and the rhythm of the music was pretty much the same throughout the program.

    There were other programs of course, like the 1984 paso doble OSP where Jane actually "became" a matador's cape. No one had seen ice dance like this before, and if weren't for them, we wouldn't have had Klimova and Ponomarenko's Bach program, or the Carmens of B&B and K&O, the great programs of A&P, the list goes on. And they heavily influenced the Finns R&K, who carried their creativity even further.

    It may be hard in hindsight to appreciate T&D's contributions because we are used to today's programs, but for those of us who lived that period, what they did and achieved was astonishing.
    Last edited by pollyanna; 04-22-2012 at 12:42 AM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    I can easily list think of non-Russian dance pairs, shooting up quickly though you might argue on their skating skills and if it was justified.
    I think nuge was slighty mocking Sandra Bezic's comment in the video posted prior to his/her post.

    Quote Originally Posted by martyross View Post
    it's interesting to see how Russian dance became after the greats. Navka/Kostomarov and Domnina/Shabalin look the same to me. a skating that wants to be grand, but comes off cold or even empty in its virtuosism. dont know if its the COP...i.e., less freedom. and it seems a steady decline.
    Little bit of both, but I don't think they look that similar.

    But I love love love COP dance..

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    And they heavily influenced the Finns P&K, who carried their creativity even further.
    P and K trained with Torvill and Dean - and Mrs, Calloway - for at least part of the season for several years.
    T and D's influence and inspiration was "all over" their skating, throughout their career.

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    thank you so much, pollyanna! your post is really appreciated. i love learning from people in 'real time' instead that always from websites or books.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    But I love love love COP dance..
    wow, you dont read this everyday :-D
    may i ask you, what you like in it?

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by martyross View Post
    thank you so much, pollyanna! your post is really appreciated. i love learning from people in 'real time' instead that always from websites or books.
    You're welcome. And I appreciate your questions and your desire to learn about figure skating history. There's a wealth of knowledge here at FSU!

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyross View Post
    wow, you dont read this everyday :-D
    may i ask you, what you like in it?
    The combination of the athletic and artistic. The way both dancers should be even in a way that wasn't true in the past (Margaglio, Lobacheva). The crazy awesome beautiful lifts.

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    I don't think it was about T&D ignoring or breaking the rules. They had to work within them. But it was probably more at the time doing things that no-one else had considered and did leave open questions to how they had interpreted them. And it was also about using every single bit of the music to create a mood or action. Even today a program like Mack or Mabel or Barnum can be held up as a standard of interpretation and choreography that very few skaters, whether they are singles, pairs or ice dancers, have achieved. Under IJS those programs are definately a 10 for components.

    It also wasn't just about the OSP and FD. They achieved a standard in compulsories that no-one else has ever done. Their compulsories got 6.0s as well and well deserved. No fluff - just pure skating.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    I don't think it was about T&D ignoring or breaking the rules. They had to work within them.
    T&D definitely did not always work within the rules. For example, women weren't allowed to be lifted above the man's shoulder. But the flip in Barnum definitely broke that rule. And the 1984 music broke the rules, and one or so of the judges at 1984 Euros dinged them for it. There was much talk about their music at the time, and many wondered if they would lose the Olympic title since they weren't following the rules.

    And remember during their 1994 comeback, many wondered if they would choose to stick to the strict rules at that time, or choose to break them again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    It also wasn't just about the OSP and FD. They achieved a standard in compulsories that no-one else has ever done. Their compulsories got 6.0s as well and well deserved. No fluff - just pure skating.
    Absolutely agree with this, in fact, I had started another post addressing this, but decided I had already been chatty enough and deleted it.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by zotza View Post
    Again,agree.St James Infirmary was as dark as blues can get.I'd have it at first back then.And I was so angry when it almost cost them the 2nd place at Worlds.I still can't believe that Krylova/Fedorov were so promoted that season.
    I also couldn't believe Krylova & Federov were promoted so heavily as well at those worlds. I would've placed them behind a number of teams who finished behind them. The Finns had a weak waltz OD that year but their FD was nice (albeit light on the content). I also really like this FD from Tatiana Navka & Samvel Gezalian.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUW8jr5oc3c

    He's not as strong a skater as she is but this program had nice choreography (hell, I found it more difficult than Usova & Zhulin's).

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    I don't think it was about T&D ignoring or breaking the rules. They had to work within them. But it was probably more at the time doing things that no-one else had considered and did leave open questions to how they had interpreted them. And it was also about using every single bit of the music to create a mood or action. Even today a program like Mack or Mabel or Barnum can be held up as a standard of interpretation and choreography that very few skaters, whether they are singles, pairs or ice dancers, have achieved. Under IJS those programs are definately a 10 for components.

    It also wasn't just about the OSP and FD. They achieved a standard in compulsories that no-one else has ever done. Their compulsories got 6.0s as well and well deserved. No fluff - just pure skating.
    Torvill & Dean's compulsories in Sarajevo were absolutely stunning! They are the golden standard.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
    T&D definitely did not always work within the rules. For example, women weren't allowed to be lifted above the man's shoulder. But the flip in Barnum definitely broke that rule. And the 1984 music broke the rules, and one or so of the judges at 1984 Euros dinged them for it. There was much talk about their music at the time, and many wondered if they would lose the Olympic title since they weren't following the rules.

    And remember during their 1994 comeback, many wondered if they would choose to stick to the strict rules at that time, or choose to break them again.
    I thought the rule was that the man couldn't lift his hands above his shoulders, not so much that the woman couldn't go above his shoulders. I just had a look at autobiography and at Euros in 1983 they did get an illegal element count but changed it for worlds.

    In hindsight it really was all quite silly and it didn't cost them anything because they were still the best out there during that time. I think the whole "breaking the rules" was more a perception about what had been accepted in ice dance until that point of time and they broke the mould. Whatever they did transcend that.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    The combination of the athletic and artistic. The way both dancers should be even in a way that wasn't true in the past (Margaglio, Lobacheva). The crazy awesome beautiful lifts.
    ITA, especially about the both dancers thing! I couldn't believe Margaglio face planted at the '02 Olympics and they still won bronze! B&K WUZROBBED!

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyross View Post
    it's interesting to see how Russian dance became after the greats. Navka/Kostomarov and Domnina/Shabalin look the same to me. a skating that wants to be grand, but comes off cold or even empty in its virtuosism. dont know if its the COP...i.e., less freedom. and it seems a steady decline.
    I liked Navka/Kostomarov but they were a bit boring compared to Grishuk/Platov and Krylova/Ovsiannikov.. I never liked Usova/Zhulin for some reason, they weren't boring but I didn't find them pleasant somehow.. Domnina/Shabalin shouldn't even be counted as among the Russian greats. Their OD at the 2010 Olympics was an out and out farce, and they shouldn't have won the 2009 Worlds. Every time I rewatch their performance at that compared to Belbin and Agosto's, I cannot understand what the judges were thinking placing D&S ahead (well, maybe thinking about politics ).

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