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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    If she's wearing a hijab to be "modest", isn't the implication that the other hijabless competitors are immodest?

    Isn't competition in and of itself immodest?

    Isn't the idea of attractive hijabs itself immodest?

    I can't get my head around all the implications.....
    Admittedly, one of my first thoughts was:

    Spiral?

    There's little in figure skating more "immodest" than a high spiral, a "Sasha" spiral, a Y spiral, catch-foot or I spiral.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    If she's wearing a hijab to be "modest", isn't the implication that the other hijabless competitors are immodest?

    Isn't competition in and of itself immodest?

    Isn't the idea of attractive hijabs itself immodest?

    I can't get my head around all the implications.....
    Well, I won't speak for her or others, but only for myself as a hijabi Muslim woman. The way I view what I wear has nothing to do with how I view what others wear. "Modesty" means different things to different people and first & foremost for me, it's about behavior, not clothing. Being judgmental about what other people are wearing is not modest behavior I'm honestly baffled as to why people think that hijabis walk around judging everyone else's sartorial choices. This was one of the rationales around the hijab bans in French schools a few years ago and it's just weird. Some bitchy women might be judgmental, but for the rest of us, it really doesn't matter what other people wear. Who cares? Believe me, most Muslim women are not walking around with their noses in the air, snarking about how immodest other women are.

    As to your other questions, competition isn't immodest, IMO; it's about excellence. And Muslims are asked to strive for excellence in their faith, work, athletics and life. Clean competition is the epitome of striving for excellence.

    A lot has been written about hijab, beauty and modesty. The gist of it is that Muslims (men and women) are encouraged to dress nicely, but not in a way that is sexually suggestive. People & culture will define that in a million different ways. The Saudis practically have a national dress of black robes for women and white robes for men. Nary a color seen anywhere (in public). Thankfully, the Saudis are not fashion trendsetters in the Muslim world!

    In fact, if you look up "hijab couture," you'll find tons of pretty & colorful hijab styles. Here's one example. That's not necessarily MY style (I like bolder colors), but their scarves are lovely nonetheless. Anyway, hope this is helpful.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orable View Post
    Well, I won't speak for her or others, but only for myself as a hijabi Muslim woman. The way I view what I wear has nothing to do with how I view what others wear. "Modesty" means different things to different people and first & foremost for me, it's about behavior, not clothing. Being judgmental about what other people are wearing is not modest behavior I'm honestly baffled as to why people think that hijabis walk around judging everyone else's sartorial choices. This was one of the rationales around the hijab bans in French schools a few years ago and it's just weird. Some bitchy women might be judgmental, but for the rest of us, it really doesn't matter what other people wear. Who cares? Believe me, most Muslim women are not walking around with their noses in the air, snarking about how immodest other women are.

    As to your other questions, competition isn't immodest, IMO; it's about excellence. And Muslims are asked to strive for excellence in their faith, work, athletics and life. Clean competition is the epitome of striving for excellence.

    A lot has been written about hijab, beauty and modesty. The gist of it is that Muslims (men and women) are encouraged to dress nicely, but not in a way that is sexually suggestive. People & culture will define that in a million different ways. The Saudis practically have a national dress of black robes for women and white robes for men. Nary a color seen anywhere (in public). Thankfully, the Saudis are not fashion trendsetters in the Muslim world!

    In fact, if you look up "hijab couture," you'll find tons of pretty & colorful hijab styles. Here's one example. That's not necessarily MY style (I like bolder colors), but their scarves are lovely nonetheless. Anyway, hope this is helpful.
    This!
    "If people are looking for guarantees, they should buy appliances at Sears and stay away from human relationships."~Prancer

  4. #44
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    What about spirals and other body positions that may be interpreted as sexually suggestive? I hope it's considered OK. After all, figure skating is a sexy sport.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  5. #45
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    Photo of Zahra Lari's catch foot spiral: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/photos...-456--spt.html
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  6. #46
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    Good for her, it looks nice. I suppose that the acceptance of the pants for women skaters opened the door for her. I don't think she could wear a typical figure skating dress.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  7. #47
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    While her fellow competitors began to skate from the age of four, Zahra, whose two brothers don't skate, took it up much later. "When I was about 11 years old I saw a movie called Ice Princess, about a geeky kid who studies ice skating as part of a physics project and falls in love with figure skating. I watched the film and fell in love with the expression and the art and knew it was what I wanted to do.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Good for her, it looks nice. I suppose that the acceptance of the pants for women skaters opened the door for her. I don't think she could wear a typical figure skating dress.
    She could certainly wear something like this
    Vintage 70s Chocolate Brown Alfred Shaheen Pantsuit w/ Empire Waist Tunic SM

    Personally I find some of the costumes worn by the younger girls a little too suggestive
    I want to thank you Lord for being with me so far this day. With your help, I have not been inpatient, lost my temper been grumpy or envious of anyone. But I will be getting out of bed in a minute and I think I will really need your help then. Amen

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    If she's wearing a hijab to be "modest", isn't the implication that the other hijabless competitors are immodest?

    Isn't competition in and of itself immodest?

    Isn't the idea of attractive hijabs itself immodest?

    I can't get my head around all the implications.....
    Orable explained it very well. You should know, though, that there is tremendous variation in the Muslim world in the concept of covering and the opinion of those who do not cover. You should also realize that the answer to your questions will be different from the standpoint of common sense and Islamic jurisprudence. In its purest form and intent, the latter directs women not to display themselves for the sake of display. Zahra is there to compete, not display herself per se, so you can make an argument that she gets a pass. Conservative Muslim thought would rule that anywhere a woman is seen by unrelated males is a violation of divine rule.

    I'm glad she and her family were able to negotiate themselves into a mindset that allowed her to pursue her dreams.
    Nadya

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Perhaps, agalisgv thought about the privately owned basketball team from KSA:



    Thank you, Nadya for the link. Very informative.
    No kiddings!

    My husband is Saudi; we often joke that if we had enough money and were good enough, we'd underwrite our own Olympic participation. We are related, so KSA should have no problem with us doing things on the ice together
    Nadya

  11. #51
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    Seems to me like "whatever it is that you are currently doing" is rationalized as "modesty." Wearing a skating outfit/figure skating and doing tricks/performing in front of an audience/going outside the house is immodest, but people find ways to justify their actions as modest, in its own way, just not the conventional way.

    On the other hand, wearing a burka is cumbersome and not exercising makes you fat, so you do have to be practical.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by JanetB View Post
    Two ideas on her custuming

    1) Her pants need to be pulled taunter, so she has less fabric vertically, I think this would help her leg line look smoother.

    2) You could do a really cool Pierrette costume for her.
    I think that probably her pants are fitted as taut as she is allowed to have them. She may not be allowed to have them any tighter. I think it's miraculous that she is allowed to ice skate competitively as it is.

    Small steps. Small victories.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    What about spirals and other body positions that may be interpreted as sexually suggestive? I hope it's considered OK. After all, figure skating is a sexy sport.
    I think 'sexy' depends on one's point of view. I certainly have seen tons of programs that I would never conceive as 'sexy' but there are exceptions of course. T&D's "Bolero" perhaps may be considered 'sultry' but G&P's Rock n Roll numbers not so much. Again-it depends on the skaters and the programs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Photo of Zahra Lari's catch foot spiral: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/photos...-456--spt.html
    She looks quite lovely!

    Quote Originally Posted by JanetB View Post
    She could certainly wear something like this
    Vintage 70s Chocolate Brown Alfred Shaheen Pantsuit w/ Empire Waist Tunic SM

    Personally I find some of the costumes worn by the younger girls a little too suggestive
    I do too-for example I consider some of the then-14 year old Elizaveta Tuktamysheva's costumes inappropriate for one so young, what with flesh-colored illusion fabric suggesting plunging necklines to her navel and well down her backside.
    Congrats to my ♥Baroque Rock Princess Adelina♥Meryl&Charlie♥Tatiana&Maxim♥!Team ♥Mirai♥Adam♥Julia♥

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    Seems to me like "whatever it is that you are currently doing" is rationalized as "modesty." Wearing a skating outfit/figure skating and doing tricks/performing in front of an audience/going outside the house is immodest, but people find ways to justify their actions as modest, in its own way, just not the conventional way.
    Yes and that's what everybody does with regards to everything in life, so...

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadya View Post
    You should know, though, that there is tremendous variation in the Muslim world in the concept of covering and the opinion of those who do not cover.
    I know this, in the last several years I've had several (self-proclaimed believing) Muslim woman co-workers none of whom ever showed any inclination to cover their heads at work (though one at least was from a country that required it).

    What I find a bit odd (and sad) is that I know of no modern Muslim tradition (as opposed to individual muslims) that would regard Michelle Kwan as modest.

    Her costumes could be on the skimpy side

    http://michellekwan.fateback.com/ima...AnnMJensen.jpg

    http://www.celebwelove.com/Michelle_...le-kwan_05.jpg

    But I've always thought she was a paragon of modesty and was able to carry off potentially immodest postures in a way that made them attractive but completely non-salacious

    http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...hcf_bXL5Fl-CfA

    (it's a talent I wish were more widespread).

    Short story: I think it's sad that a muslim Michelle Kwan would likely be judged by most of her co-religionists as 'immodest' and be unable to express her artistry and excellence to their fullest extent.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    I do too-for example I consider some of the then-14 year old Elizaveta Tuktamysheva's costumes inappropriate for one so young, what with flesh-colored illusion fabric suggesting plunging necklines to her navel and well down her backside.
    I just consider them unattractive. I don't like illusion fabric. However, Elizaveta can certainly put the tango in her tango at her tender age. So I'd put her in a long sleeve, scoop neck (to add neck height) black dress with crystals or sequins or something along these lines. May be some lace details.

    As to skating being sexy--it is. Skimpy/form fitting costumes and body conscious poses abound. Skaters are using their bodies to make a beautiful line and in pairs and dance there is a lot of grabbing of certain body parts. It is what it is.

    I am glad this girl is able to skate but I do recall Orable's friend logging on here and lecturing us about skating being sinful. So I am wondering how wide spread the view is that skating or gymnastics or ice dancing is fine for Muslim girls.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    As to skating being sexy--it is. Skimpy/form fitting costumes and body conscious poses abound. Skaters are using their bodies to make a beautiful line and in pairs and dance there is a lot of grabbing of certain body parts. It is what it is.
    But isn't that all open to interpretation?

    E.g. the grabbing of certain body parts in ice-dance and pairs - some of those are necessary for the position during lifts, I don't think they all insinuate "I want to grab her, undress her and make hot love on the ice, right here".

    Same with the spiral. All you see is a covered crotch. To me, that's all there is to it. Gynaecologists see uncovered crotches day in, day out. It's not sexy for them. At least I hope so.

    A spiral doesn't mean to me "Look how well I can display my crotch to the public while gliding over the ice.". It's more like "Look how elegant and flexible my body is, how well I can keep the balance and through this move underline the sweeping violins of Tschaikovsky's Violin Concerto." Other people might enjoy the interesting geometry of the classic spiral positions, so unlike the normal human body line.

  17. #57
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    A lot of ice dance fans tell say that although they appreciate V/M technical ability, their skating isn't sexy enough for ice dance.

    No, it's not sexy for gynecologists at all. However, if people walked around with uncovered crotches, many would question their modesty, don't you think?

    I like a good spiral for the flexibility, speed and control but people who are concerned with modesty, covering up and not displaying yourself may see it differently.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    However, if people walked around with uncovered crotches, many would question their modesty, don't you think?


    Well, it depends on where you'd do it, doesn't it? There were / are cultures where being completely nude was / is just natural. In Germany there was a very active nudist movement (link not safe at work) at the beginning of the 20th century, but the Nazis didn't like it and argued as follows
    Among women the nudity kills natural modesty; it takes from men their respect for women, and thereby destroys the prerequisite for any genuine culture. It is therefore expected of all police authorities that, in support of the spiritual powers developed through the national movement, they take all police measures to destroy the so-called nude culture.
    Lunatics always cite similar reasons, it's terrifying.

    But there are still nude-only beaches in Germany and the movement got some of it's popularity back.
    -----------

    I totally get what you mean though. I am completely aware of the fact that lots of people would consider skating to be a "sexy" sport because of various reasons. But if those are the same people, who consider women immodest, because they go out on the street without a brother / male relative in tow - then I am not sure I really want to consider these peoples' opinions.

    Nearly everything can be considered sexy, be it a body part, a movement, a facial expression. I think we are doing this brave young woman and this sport a disservice by trying to list all the reasons, that might encourage ultra-conservative gits to declare her immodest.

    She is out on the ice, doing her thing - on her own terms. Good for her.

  19. #59
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    I personally have nothing against human form, nude or covered. I too am glad for this young woman and am impressed that having started so late, she seems to be a decent skater--that catch foot spiral is rather nice, as I'd mentioned above. She is lucky to have the means to live outside of her home country and do what she loves. Hope she will not get in trouble with some conservative busy body.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    I know this, in the last several years I've had several (self-proclaimed believing) Muslim woman co-workers none of whom ever showed any inclination to cover their heads at work (though one at least was from a country that required it).

    What I find a bit odd (and sad) is that I know of no modern Muslim tradition (as opposed to individual muslims) that would regard Michelle Kwan as modest.

    Her costumes could be on the skimpy side

    http://michellekwan.fateback.com/ima...AnnMJensen.jpg

    http://www.celebwelove.com/Michelle_...le-kwan_05.jpg

    But I've always thought she was a paragon of modesty and was able to carry off potentially immodest postures in a way that made them attractive but completely non-salacious

    http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...hcf_bXL5Fl-CfA

    (it's a talent I wish were more widespread).

    Short story: I think it's sad that a muslim Michelle Kwan would likely be judged by most of her co-religionists as 'immodest' and be unable to express her artistry and excellence to their fullest extent.
    Well, that's exactly what happened to a few Muslim women athletes like Nawal Mutawakel.

    To answer your question, I think a Muslim Michelle Kwan would not have existed, and if she did, she and her family would have lodged themselves into a brainspace where approval their co-religionists was unimportant before she landed her first single axel.

    Who was posting here saying skating is sinful again? Don't recall. Would like to see.
    Nadya

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