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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I am glad this girl is able to skate but I do recall Orable's friend logging on here and lecturing us about skating being sinful. So I am wondering how wide spread the view is that skating or gymnastics or ice dancing is fine for Muslim girls.
    My friend? Someone I know perhaps, but while some of my friends are conservative, I can't imagine they'd go on some site and lecture people they don't know...

    You guys, this girl comes from a really conservative part of the world - even for Muslims - and her parents and community (and press) seem supportive. Let's celebrate that instead of "what if-ing" terrible scenarios.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    I think that probably her pants are fitted as taut as she is allowed to have them. She may not be allowed to have them any tighter. I think it's miraculous that she is allowed to ice skate competitively as it is.
    Making the leg taunter would not make it tighter if you look at this picture of Adam Rippon, I think you can see what I mean. His pants are not tight around his legs but they are pulled tight down the length of his legs. If I were her designer I would put her in black pants and boots like Adam, like over the boot tights this would lengthen her leg line. Secondly I would Jazz up her hijab, if she is going to wear it why not rock it. If you look at some of these hijabs they are lovely and could very easily be made into the focus of the costume. This blue one with the black pants and tunic with similar details would kick ass.
    I want to thank you Lord for being with me so far this day. With your help, I have not been inpatient, lost my temper been grumpy or envious of anyone. But I will be getting out of bed in a minute and I think I will really need your help then. Amen

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil-Galad View Post


    Well, it depends on where you'd do it, doesn't it? There were / are cultures where being completely nude was / is just natural. In Germany there was a very active nudist movement (link not safe at work) at the beginning of the 20th century, but the Nazis didn't like it and argued as follows

    Lunatics always cite similar reasons, it's terrifying.

    But there are still nude-only beaches in Germany and the movement got some of it's popularity back.
    -----------

    slightly off topic but when ever we go to the Caribbean and there are older nude people or men in skimpy speedos.. we always say 'oh they must be German' my hubby lived there for a while and I've always appreciated their confidence in not caring how they look naked
    Thanks to PI .. I discovered I'm actually a Nontheist

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    No matter what you wear, there's always going to be someone calling into question your morals and character based on the clothes you wear. I remember there was some blog calling the costumes of figure skating scandalous and perhaps implying that figure skaters were no better than prostitutes. As an example, they put up a picture of Kimmie Meissner in her 2007 LP dress. Some people can't be pleased.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    What about spirals and other body positions that may be interpreted as sexually suggestive?
    I think one of the proposals for next year was the option of doing a moves in the field sequence instead of a spiral step sequence.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I think one of the proposals for next year was the option of doing a moves in the field sequence instead of a spiral step sequence.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I think one of the proposals for next year was the option of doing a moves in the field sequence instead of a spiral step sequence.
    Great idea this.

    Spirals can be very impressive when performed to a Czisny standard but in most cases...

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    Wish they'd get rid of the required layback spin too.

  9. #69
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    Why? I love the layback when done right like Cohen for instance. Or the Pearl spin by Zhang is just Seeing it live was one of the highlights of 2012 Nationals.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  10. #70
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    [broken record]

    I think the rules for Ladies and Men should be the same, and that laybacks and spiral step sequences shouldn't be required for Ladies.

    [/broken record]

    In terms of modesty, which will be individually determined in context, the biggest challenges are the spirals, where there's a minimum height requirement to count, the layback with breasts in the air, and the camel position. The first may be able to be addressed through moves in the field, and the second through a side position layback spin, but the camel may have to be avoided, which could have an impact on levels, unless an upright spin position could be used in combo spins.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  11. #71
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    I've never thought about the layback as breasts in the air. Interesting that you do.

    Also, you'd like to see lifts banned in pairs and dance because they can look pretty immodest too, right?

    If the rules should be the same for the ladies and the men, should the ladies be required a 3 axel, a quad and 3/3? Let's make it equal all the way.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Great idea this.

    Spirals can be very impressive when performed to a Czisny standard but in most cases...
    Hmm. I actually dislike her spiral. The height is great but the way it sticks out to the side instead of right behind her is weird. Like a handle on a device that got loose or something.
    Nadya

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I've never thought about the layback as breasts in the air. Interesting that you do.
    I was looking at programs to see what required elements might be considered immodest in a Middle Eastern culture to see if there was an alternative, and that was one of the ones I though would catch a censor's eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Also, you'd like to see lifts banned in pairs and dance because they can look pretty immodest too, right?
    I'm not sure why you think that I think elements should be banned. In the Moves in the Field proposal, it's an alternative.

    I hadn't looked at Pairs to see if there's an alternative to required elements, because the biggest obstacle for Pairs and Dance would be a man and woman touching in public, which eliminates all required elements except the SBS jumps and spins in Pairs and non-touching FW in Dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    If the rules should be the same for the ladies and the men, should the ladies be required a 3 axel, a quad and 3/3? Let's make it equal all the way.
    There's no requirement in Men's competition for a 3A, 3/3, or quad anywhere Men can do 2A or 3A and 3/2 or 2/3 as the combo in the SP, just like Ladies. Ladies can't do quads in the SP, but men are by no means required to, or most of the field in Nice would have received minimal credit for their solo jumps and combos. Among those Men in Nice who did 2A in the SP were Kevin Van der Perren. Gachinski was slammed in Nice for doing a 2/2, not a 3/2.

    Practically speaking, a Ladies skater would not be competitive without a 3/3, 3A, and quad, but that's only if she is competing against men directly, not in the Ladies event.

    I do think that Ladies shouldn't be forced to do layback spins or spirals, and that they should have the same choices in spins and steps as men. Even without the proposed Moves in the Field element, I think Ladies should be able to do another kind of spin in place of the layback spin and two different step sequences in lieu of the spiral.

    I'm fairly certain the MIF proposal is not to accommodate a skater from UAE.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 04-23-2012 at 07:12 PM.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  14. #74
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    I am not talking about accommodating a skater from anywhere, but about suggestions to eliminate requirements that have long been highlights of the sport. They showcase a skater's flexibility, control of the blade in COE spiral and mastery of complex positions during a spin (you have to demonstrate several for x number of revolutions to get a high level).

    Yes, men are not technically required to do the complex jumps but you and I know that they have to, the expectation is absolutely there. Try winning an event or even medaling doing only what's technically required by the written rules.

    There cannot be equality in what's accepted and expected from men and ladies competitors. So since the ladies are not expected (really, not required) to do the quad, etc, they can demonstrate their mastery of the sport by doing the very elements you want eliminated, the layback, the spiral, etc.

    Kudos to Zhara for doing the catchfoot spiral and doing it well.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Practically speaking, a Ladies skater would not be competitive without a 3/3, 3A, and quad, but that's only if she is competing against men directly, not in the Ladies event.
    Right.
    I've thought that it would be interesting to have a coed competition using pre-2010 ladies' short program rules only. Required layback and spiral sequence, required solo double axel and no quads allowed. Oh, but I'd use the 1.0 and not 0.8 factor for the program components. That should level the playing field enough that, e.g., 2010 Yuna Kim probably could have made top three without a triple axel.

    I do think that Ladies shouldn't be forced to do layback spins or spirals, and that they should have the same choices in spins and steps as men. Even without the proposed Moves in the Field element, I think Ladies should be able to do another kind of spin in place of the layback spin and two different step sequences in lieu of the spiral.
    Me too, at least in the free program. I've said for years I want to see both men and women have the option of second step sequence OR spiral sequence OR field moves sequence in the free program.

    Both sexes already have their choice of spin in one position in the free program. It's only the short program that requires layback for women and change-foot sit or camel or men.

    If the SP is about required skills, perhaps the required solo spin position should alternate every year, as is already the case for junior men.

    I'm fairly certain the MIF proposal is not to accommodate a skater from UAE.
    Obviously.

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    So since the ladies are not expected (really, not required) to do the quad, etc, they can demonstrate their mastery of the sport by doing the very elements you want eliminated, the layback, the spiral, etc.
    But spirals and laybacks are more about extreme flexibility, especially under the current rules where Biellmanns or full split spins count as a feature. And some fans -myself included- feel this makes it harder for a more athletic, but not uber-flexible girl skater to get higher levels on these skills. Being given an option to do a different spin or MITF like spread eagles or ina bauers instead of spirals is a very good thing, IMO. Skaters who are flexible could still do those elements, but those who cannot (do them as well) wouldn't automatically start with a handicap because of it.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I am not talking about accommodating a skater from anywhere, but about suggestions to eliminate requirements that have long been highlights of the sport. They showcase a skater's flexibility, control of the blade in COE spiral and mastery of complex positions during a spin (you have to demonstrate several for x number of revolutions to get a high level).
    Mastery of complex positions, number of revolutions, etc. during a spin can be shown equally in any kind of spin.

    I think that the flexibility in spirals and laybacks is fine and should be rewarded, but that it shouldn't be elevated over any of the other skills, and especially over form in general, proper jump technique, and use of proper edges.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    There cannot be equality in what's accepted and expected from men and ladies competitors. So since the ladies are not expected (really, not required) to do the quad, etc, they can demonstrate their mastery of the sport by doing the very elements you want eliminated, the layback, the spiral, etc.
    Many of the top Ladies are performing 3/3's in SP (now), with the trend going upward, and very few men are performing quads in the SP. Women's solo jump difficulty is close to par with the Men. The spiral is no longer a requirement for the SP and is considered in transitions.

    Ladies can show mastery of the sport -- blade and body control -- in the FS by doing a circular step sequence and a straightline or serpentine sequence sequence as well as they can show it by doing a spiral step sequence. I don't think that women should have to display flexibility in lieu of harder jumps and jump combos, and that is what both spirals and layback spins require.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    No matter what you wear, there's always going to be someone calling into question your morals and character based on the clothes you wear. I remember there was some blog calling the costumes of figure skating scandalous and perhaps implying that figure skaters were no better than prostitutes. As an example, they put up a picture of Kimmie Meissner in her 2007 LP dress. Some people can't be pleased.
    I think that was the same creepy weirdo who came on here a few times to argue that ladies should wear their tights pulled up over the panties of their dresses, rather than wearing the panties over the dresses. Its argument was "modesty" but it looked like this person had spent, um, a rather immodest amount of time thinking about crotchlines and bunched-up panties.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Mastery of complex positions, number of revolutions, etc. during a spin can be shown equally in any kind of spin.
    But none other require the head to be off axis from upright (either back or sideways), which certainly challenges the balance more. However, can it be required in a way that doesn't demand flexibility?

    I like to see the women who don't have the flexibility for catch-foot positions -- as well as some who do -- experimenting with backspin laybacks and forward outside edge laybacks. Never saw the latter at all before IJS came along.

    I think that the flexibility in spirals and laybacks is fine and should be rewarded, but that it shouldn't be elevated over any of the other skills, and especially over form in general, proper jump technique, and use of proper edges.
    Probably a moot point now that spiral sequences are reduced and purely "choreo." But I always wanted to see more edge-based features and a limit on the flexibility features.


    Many of the top Ladies are performing 3/3's in SP (now), with the trend going upward, and very few men are performing quads in the SP. Women's solo jump difficulty is close to par with the Men. The spiral is no longer a requirement for the SP and is considered in transitions.

    Ladies can show mastery of the sport -- blade and body control -- in the FS by doing a circular step sequence and a straightline or serpentine sequence sequence as well as they can show it by doing a spiral step sequence. I don't think that women should have to display flexibility in lieu of harder jumps and jump combos, and that is what both spirals and layback spins require.[/QUOTE]

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    But none other require the head to be off axis from upright (either back or sideways), which certainly challenges the balance more. However, can it be required in a way that doesn't demand flexibility?
    I assume you mean when skaters are using good posture

    Illusion and camel spin positions do this, as well as flying entrances, but that would required lifting the leg to at least 90 degrees or over the head. Skaters have taken their head off axis in SL and circular footwork by virtue of changes in body positions and in lunges, hitchkick's, etc., but it's more limited in use and duration, although it involves maintaining balance during (usually) faster direction changes and (usually) greater momentum.

    A layback spin has higher base value than other (basic position) spins: if skaters want to show this particular balance challenge, they can opt for the higher-value layback. Not every Ladies skater has competitive technical content, with or without the spirals and laybacks (see Karademir, Tugba and Maxwell, Fleur), yet every one is required to show this characteristic. A Men's skater with 2A, 3T/2, and a solo loop isn't required to compensate for his lack of jump content by showing flexibility through a spiral step sequence and/or a layback spin (those slackers!). I don't see why Ladies should have to, either, if they have other and better elemental skills.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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