2012-13 Grand Prix Pre-announcement Thread

[jlai]

This will affect USFS selection to jw because skaters like Gao will no longer be able to go back to jw, which has been USFS strategy for Jr world that ensures their getting enough jgp spots next season.

With the ladies field there may be enough good girls for US to send but if Brown does gp then the US will send three rookies to jw next year

[Anya]

It makes sense to have one age standard for all senior competitions (either that or get rid of age restrictions in seniors altogether). I just hope they will save major changes like that until after the Olympic season. A skater like Lipnitskaya, who has been competing senior at Nationals successfully for years, is operating under the impression that she'll have two senior GP seasons under her belt before the Olympics. If the rules suddenly change, that would totally throw off her Olympic plans and she won't get any senior experience until just a few months before the Olympics.

There are skaters younger than Lipnitskaya with comparable level of skills (Elena Rodionova, for one) who have competed at Senior Russian Nationals even though they are definitely not eligible for the 2014 Olympics. Not to mention Tuktamysheva and Sotnikova, who debuted at Senior Nationals at 11 and 12, respectively, years before they were eligible even for Junior international events. It is a local Russian issue, and I do not see why the ISU should bother to take it into account (but I bet the RFSF will try to influence the outcome of this vote).

[Libertango]

Will the FFSG want to have Chan at TEB, seeing as how he was probably the least popular medalist with the audience at Worlds?

They might not have the choice and frankly I don't think they care! Chan has skated at TEB as many times as he has at SC since he's a senior! (He's never done COC, has been only once to COR, NHK ans SA).

I'm not as convinced for Joubert at TEB because he has never been confortable in Bercy and now that he has a valid reason to skip it (another french contender for the podium) he might skip it. Besides he has mentionned wanting to try winning COC before he retires. He might want Rostelecom too since he may be training with Urmanov in Russia this year.

[Ziggy]

I'm also pretty sure that it's not just me who has had more than enough of seeing Sui/Han win JGPs and Junior Worlds for a number of seasons now.

Yes they are very good but they've already won Junior elite events many times now. Time to move on.

[jlai]

If new age rule takes effect and age maximum also lowered for jrs, more jrs will age out of jrs with few sr competition opportunities, esp since it is so "easy" to get a gp now (not)

There really should be more sr opportunities for skaters. ISU, ugh!

[Vagabond]

Thank god! It's about time they did something like that. Frankly, I've always thought it's criminal that Denis Ten is still allowed to go to Junior Worlds. He's been to the Olympics, FFS.

Once a Senior, always a Senior IMO. You shouldn't be able to just pick and choose.

If I read it right, someone like Artur Gachinski (DOB 13/08/1993) would still be eligible for Junior Worlds next season. The very fact that Artur, who is a silver medallist at Europeans and a bronze medallist at Senior Worlds, would be able to go back to Junior Worlds is somewhat laughable. Can you imagine if he'd decided to get in an extra competition between Euros and Worlds this year and gone to Minsk?

I'm glad they're changing the rule.

While I think that there's no good reason why someone like Denis Ten should be able to go to Junior Worlds three years after finishing in the Top Ten at Worlds, I do wonder about the effect of this rule on some less accomplished skaters, especially if they're the only age-eligible Senior from their federation.

I can foresee the day when some fifteen-year-old girl from, say, Croatia or Latvia finishes thirtieth at Europeans, goes through a growth spurt, and needs to rework her jumps. It might be in her interest to spend a season on the Junior Grand Prix, but, if I understand it correctly, the rule change would effectively limit her to Worlds, Euros, and Senior "B" events.

[Cherub721]

There are skaters younger than Lipnitskaya with comparable level of skills (Elena Rodionova, for one) who have competed at Senior Russian Nationals even though they are definitely not eligible for the 2014 Olympics. Not to mention Tuktamysheva and Sotnikova, who debuted at Senior Nationals at 11 and 12, respectively, years before they were eligible even for Junior international events. It is a local Russian issue, and I do not see why the ISU should bother to take it into account (but I bet the RFSF will try to influence the outcome of this vote).

I agree that her competing at Nationals should not affect the ISU rules. I was just using that to demonstrate that Lipnitskaya is likely planning to turn senior internationally as soon as possible, so it would be a shame if a change in the ISU eligibility rules drastically changed her Olympic preparation at this time. Radionova is not affected because she won't be elible for Sochi anyway. The rule change, if passed and applied immediately, would only affect skaters who would be turning senior GP eligible in fall 2012. Lipnitskaya is the best known skater in that category. As an Olympic hopeful, this would give her only half of the ISU senior experience she would have anticipated having before the games.

[barbk]

I'd like a rule where once you've hit top 10 or 12 at Worlds, or top 6 at Europeans/4CC, you're ineligible for future junior-level international competitions.

There are going to be winners and losers from any rule change, but this would at least take care of the biggest issues.

[Ziggy]

While I think that there's no good reason why someone like Denis Ten should be able to go to Junior Worlds three years after finishing in the Top Ten at Worlds, I do wonder about the effect of this rule on some less accomplished skaters, especially if they're the only age-eligible Senior from their federation.

I can foresee the day when some fifteen-year-old girl from, say, Croatia or Latvia finishes thirtieth at Europeans, goes through a growth spurt, and needs to rework her jumps. It might be in her interest to spend a season on the Junior Grand Prix, but, if I understand it correctly, the rule change would effectively limit her to Worlds, Euros, and Senior "B" events.

That is actually a very good point.

We think about the likes of Sui/Han, Ten or Gao but this would really affect skaters from smaller countries.

Especially if there is a situation (which is very often the case) where a country has only once decent skater.

Case in point: Alina Fjodorova.

She's the only Latvian skater with a number of consistent triples.

Why shouldn't she do both Junior and Senior events if there isn't anybody in her country anywhere near her level?

I'd like a rule where once you've hit top 10 or 12 at Worlds, or top 6 at Europeans/4CC, you're ineligible for future junior-level international competitions.

There are going to be winners and losers from any rule change, but this would at least take care of the biggest issues.

I like that idea.

This would prevent the Sui/Hans and Denis Tens from returning to the Junior circuit, whilst giving skaters like Alina Fjodorova an opportunity to compete at both for a period of time.

I agree that her competing at Nationals should not affect the ISU rules. I was just using that to demonstrate that Lipnitskaya is likely planning to turn senior internationally as soon as possible, so it would be a shame if a change in the ISU eligibility rules drastically changed her Olympic preparation at this time.

How would it affect her?

Less exposure to international judges?

You'd think that somebody who dominated the JGP circuit and then won Junior Worlds earned enough cred already for that to be a major issue.

I guess your point is that it's not fair to her to change the rules now but I am confident she's going to be fine.

[julieann]

I'd like a rule where once you've hit top 10 or 12 at Worlds, or top 6 at Europeans/4CC, you're ineligible for future junior-level international competitions.

There are going to be winners and losers from any rule change, but this would at least take care of the biggest issues.

I don't really like that idea either, then you run into a weird situation like the grand prix after the Olympics where most of the top pairs weren't skating for what ever reason and if jr skaters got bumped up and once the sr skaters could skate again where would the jrs go If they weren't allowed back down to jrs?

It should go by score not age. Once S/H started scoring in the 190s-200s they no longer should have been with the jrs.

[Zemgirl]

They might not have the choice and frankly I don't think they care! Chan has skated at TEB as many times as he has at SC since he's a senior! (He's never done COC, has been only once to COR, NHK ans SA).

I'm not as convinced for Joubert at TEB because he has never been confortable in Bercy and now that he has a valid reason to skip it (another french contender for the podium) he might skip it. Besides he has mentionned wanting to try winning COC before he retires. He might want Rostelecom too since he may be training with Urmanov in Russia this year.

I've heard conflicting statements about this: are the assignment requests of the seeded skaters binding, or the federations get to decide (and I don't mean just for host picks). I think Dai would be a more interesting choice, and he hasn't been to TEB in years.

As for Joubert, I thought that he didn't like skating in France in general - but having skated well in Nice, maybe he's had a change of heart? I certainly expect him to go to CoC again, and I don't think he plans to train in Russia full-time.

[Libertango]

I've heard conflicting statements about this: are the assignment requests of the seeded skaters binding, or the federations get to decide (and I don't mean just for host picks). I think Dai would be a more interesting choice, and he hasn't been to TEB in years.

As for Joubert, I thought that he didn't like skating in France in general - but having skated well in Nice, maybe he's had a change of heart? I certainly expect him to go to CoC again, and I don't think he plans to train in Russia full-time.

I think there's a draw to decide the order of the federations. Skaters. Most of the time, the federations try to go with the athletes' choices (ie an European skater training in the US who would rather go to SA).

For Joubert, his rink is closing down soon this year (16th May for the public, later for the skating club) so he's going to have to find an alternative.

[pinky166]

This will affect USFS selection to jw because skaters like Gao will no longer be able to go back to jw, which has been USFS strategy for Jr world that ensures their getting enough jgp spots next season.

With the ladies field there may be enough good girls for US to send but if Brown does gp then the US will send three rookies to jw next year

So does this mean, if Farris and Brown do GP next season, they can't be sent to JW even though they are age eligible for it for 2 more seasons? But if they chose to compete on the JGP again, they could be sent to JW or senior Worlds, 4CC, because they are eligible by age for all competitions and would compete as seniors at Nationals? Or would they not be permitted to go to 4CC or Worlds, even if they were to place top 2 at Nats, because they had competed as juniors during the fall season? In other Worlds, would what Ricky Dornbush did last season be no longer allowed as well? If this is how the new rule works, it's a tough situation, but if only the senior GP is limiting their post national international assignment options, then I wouldn't be surprised to see both of them on the JGP again, especially now that medalists at JGPF and JW are no longer garaunteed a GP. Really doesn't give boys in this situation much incentive to move up in the fall at all. Plus realistically they are probably aiming for 2018 as opposed to 2014 now that all these old guys keep sticking around and are talking about coming back.

[Zemgirl]

For Joubert, his rink is closing down soon this year (16th May for the public, later for the skating club) so he's going to have to find an alternative.

Yes, I know, but I believe his plan is to remain in France.

It'll be interesting to see who takes the ISU up on the three GP option; it worked out well for several skaters last year - will they repeat the strategy? And if I'm not mistaken, V/T opted for only two GPs so that they could do a senior B and get ranking points, but now they have more than enough, so maybe they'll be inclined to add a third event?

[Cherub721]

How would it affect her?

Less exposure to international judges?

You'd think that somebody who dominated the JGP circuit and then won Junior Worlds earned enough cred already for that to be a major issue.

I guess your point is that it's not fair to her to change the rules now but I am confident she's going to be fine.

She has experience with international judges (junior level) but I think there is something to be said for actually skating with the seniors. The seniors are more intimidating, they skate bigger, they have better artistry, etc. Many juniors have spoken about how they feel different skating in the same warmup groups with top senior skaters. I think two seasons on the senior GP would be a huge asset to Lipnitskaya so that she could see how she fares next season and then make the necessary changes for 2013-14, like Tuktamyesheva has to do with her ice coverage for example.

[kwanfan1818]

NHK Trophy is a bit of a conundrum for the JSF because while Takahashi is the biggest crowd puller in Japan (yes bigger than Mao who is the TV ratings draw), the event this year is being hosted in Sendai which is Hanyu's home town.

There are no restrictions for the host picks, at least in the announcement. Several times in the past decade, there have been fields at NHK that didn't reflect the "one from 1-3, one from 4-6, etc." selection process. I think Japan can pick both Takahashi and Hanyu for NHK; if neither Chan nor Takahashi nor Hanyu chooses to do three events, another event would likely get two from the 4-6 (Joubert, Amodio, Brezina).

Also, Plushenko has announced his intention of competing next season, and he's guaranteed one GP by virtue of a top 24 SB. (While he might drop out of 2nd SB at WTT, there aren't enough skaters at WTT to knock him out of top 24, even if every one were to surpass his score from Euros.) Almost every skater guaranteed one over the last four-five years has gotten two in the initial selection.

Either TEB or Rostelecom could have two from 4-6 and Plushenko and have as strong a field as any other event. I doubt Joubert would like that at TEB, though.

I'd appreciate it if someone could clarify the split couple rules (where a split couple has had a high placement in the past, and one member of the team returns with a new partner). Do the new partnerships go to the top of the alternate list? This would affect teams such as Gilles/Poirier, for example.

"Split Couples" are second highest on the alternates list. Highest are "Comeback" skaters who don't take the "guaranteed two" one-time option. There were none last season.

The GP announcement is contradictory about when the original team had to be in the top 12 at a Worlds -- last season, the last two seasons, ever -- but given how it worked last season, it appears that:

1. Each member of a team earns one slot on the replacement list, as Chock/Bates got two, one for Chock/Zuerlein, and one for Samuelson/Bates.

2. It goes back at least two seasons, since Chock/Bates got one for Samuelson/Bates, and Samuelson/Gilles got one for Samuelson/Bates, and S/B skipped a season due to injury.

Once a Senior, always a Senior IMO. You shouldn't be able to just pick and choose.

It works a bit differently for Pairs, since they can do both Junior and Senior GP and compete at Jr. Worlds. I do think, though, once they compete in Senior championships, they shouldn't be allowed to return to JGP or Jr. Championships.

With the ladies field there may be enough good girls for US to send but if Brown does gp then the US will send three rookies to jw next year

I don't think this should influence whether Brown or any other Junior skates Seniors next year or are submitted for GP, especially if they are guaranteed a spot based on SB (Farris-19, Brown-23, Aldredge/Eaton). They know what the senior fields hold at GP and championships as well as their chances at Senior Nationals, and the decision should be based on when they want to make the change, not to be held back to earn development spots for the future, IMO.

[flowerpower]

^
Thanks!

[jlai]

I don't think this should influence whether Brown or any other Junior skates Seniors next year or are submitted for GP, especially if they are guaranteed a spot based on SB (Farris-19, Brown-23, Aldredge/Eaton).

Didn't think it should, but Brown's decision will affect USFS's JW strategy though

[pinky166]

Didn't think it should, but Brown's decision will affect USFS's JW strategy though

This. Brown and Farris are eligible for 2 more JWCs. Top juniors this season like Dolensky and Warren have aged out of ISU junior, and Choate is only eligible for one more season, and at 18 if he doesn't have a 3a yet, idk if he ever will. Chen will of course finally be eligible and is amazing, but will he have a 3a by the spring? He might but if he doesn't, even if he's skates well, he's likely to fair like Shoma Uno did this season and finish in the lower top 10. If USFS wants to keep its maximum number of JGP slots for the men, it's smart to send skaters like Farris and Brown to JW until they age out (unless they do really well at Nationals and make the senior Worlds team) because they can rely on them to place well and get the maximum number of JGP spots.

Arguably, the young, unproven "true junior" skaters should be given the chance to compete at JW, but there is more of a risk this way.

Hopefully this change won't influence Farris and/or Brown to stay on the JGP another season just to get a chance/basically a garauntee to get to go to JW next season should they not make the 4CC or World teams if they otherwise were planning to move up, but idk, with this change I wouldn't be surprised if they both stayed on the JGP another season. So I'm not sure if I like this change. Josh especially is ready for the GP, he has all the tricks, his skating is senior quality, but idk if this rule change will influence he and his coaches decision.

[Vagabond]

That is actually a very good point.

We think about the likes of Sui/Han, Ten or Gao but this would really affect skaters from smaller countries.

Especially if there is a situation (which is very often the case) where a country has only once decent skater.

Case in point: Alina Fjodorova.

She's the only Latvian skater with a number of consistent triples.

Why shouldn't she do both Junior and Senior events if there isn't anybody in her country anywhere near her level?

Indeed.

It's also a consideration when there's a small federation with several decent skaters, such as Belgium with Kevin van der Perren and Jorik Hendrickx or Italy with Carolina Kostner, Valentina Marchei, and several other ladies who might be able to rack up a respectable score.

Here are a few examples I can think of right away of skaters who continued skating Juniors after making their international Senior debut (selected competitions only):

Javier Fernández

2006-07: Euros (28th), Worlds (35th)
2007-08: JGP Estonia (9th), JGP Great Britain (11th), Euros (17th), World Juniors (13th), Worlds (30th)
2008-09: JGP Spain (4th), JGP Mexico (8th)

Elena Glebova

2004-05: Euros (25th), World Juniors (20th), Worlds (33rd)
2005-06: JGP Estonia (6th), Euros (15th), World Juniors (11th), Olympics (28th)
2006-07: JGP Hungary (6th), JGP Czech Republic (3rd)

Kevin van der Perren

1999-2000: Euros (28th), World Juniors (26th), Worlds (31st)
2000-01: JGP Norway (11th), Euros (26th), Junior Worlds (23rd), Worlds (33rd)

Jorik Hendrickx

2009-10: Euros (20th), World Juniors (15th)
2010-11: JGP Austria (7th), JGP Germany (6th), Euros (16th), World Juniors (13th), Worlds (19th)

Francesca Rio

2008-09: Euros (15th), World Juniors (11th)
2009-10: JGP Germany (21st)

It's hard to see what benefit there would have been to preventing these skaters from continuing to skate Juniors. They certainly weren't world-beaters at the time.