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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Yes, Bournekraatzfan, to many I am apparently "a hater." Guess that's just the cross I have to bear. You make some interesting points, many of which I have no argument with. I guess it is too much to ask for you and others to not misinterpret my posts, make assumptions, or assign negative connotations to everything I have to say about Patrick. I see you posted my comments from another thread. Fine, if you think my feelings about Chan's wonderfully performed and choreographed Worlds exhibition are "disrespectful" to Patrick, so be it. That's the thing about some Chan fans seeming to feel such a need to defend him, to police threads about him, to excoriate and complain about anyone who is the slightest bit critical or who makes the slightest fun (not even of him, but of the way he's been consistently over-scored, and over-hyped). By simply pointing out skaters who "capture my heart," I guess that means to you I find Chan "soulless," even tho' I've never said that.

    OTOH, I always find it refreshing to hear from the few Chan fans who enjoy him but yet are reasonable about the fact that not everyone does for a variety of reasons.
    That was not what I meant at all, and perhaps I should have been more clear. Much of what I said was in reference to things I have observed on this board in general (and I will continue to discuss things in this manner in this post). I think it is great that you enjoy other skaters so much, and I do not think that doing so and discussing it makes you a hater. I am referring to comments that actually use the word "soulless" to describe his skating (and I know this wasn't you which is why I did not actually attribute this comment to you, though I do see how it could have been interpreted that way) or imply this about his skating, and those that say that the only people who could enjoy Chan's skating are those with "an edge fetish," (or call him or his fans names). As The Accordian has pointed out, how can one assume that just because he/she/they is/are not moved by a person's skating that it is devoid of any artistic value and could not possibly mean something to someone else? I just don't see any reason to belittle people for loving Patrick Chan or any other skater for that matter. And sometimes it is these people, the ones who post in such a manner, who get very defensive and at times even aggressive when others challenge them on it.

    As for the Chan fans getting defensive, it is hard not to when you see him being trashed over and over again (and I am not referring to well-informed and respectful criticism of his skating or scoring here). And there is a difference between "polic[ing] threads about him, ... excoriat[ing] and complain[ing] about anyone who is the slightest bit critical or who makes the slightest fun (not even of him, but of the way he's been consistently over-scored, and over-hyped)" and disagreeing with with some of the criticism about Patrick or how he is being scored. I agree that some fans (not just of Patrick, but of other skaters) do the former, but sometimes I also think that those who do the latter are thrown into the same category.

    I did not say that what you said about Chan's exhibition was "disrespectful," I just said that it did not indicate to me that you thought he performed well. I was teasing a bit and that is why I used the

    And lastly, you are right, we should all try our best not to misinterpret posts and make assumptions.
    Last edited by Bournekraatzfan; 04-18-2012 at 08:43 PM. Reason: clarity

  2. #202

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    Patrick's made really good coaching decisions so far, (Krall did amazing things with his jumps) I think he and those around him know how to make good choices for the next coach.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    That was not what I meant at all, and perhaps I should have been more clear.
    You were clear.

    And there is a difference between "polic[ing] threads about him, ... excoriat[ing] and complain[ing] about anyone who is the slightest bit critical or who makes the slightest fun (not even of him, but of the way he's been consistently over-scored, and over-hyped)" and disagreeing with with some of the criticism about Patrick or how he is being scored. I agree that some fans (not just of Patrick, but of other skaters) do the former, but sometimes I also think that those who do the latter are thrown into the same category.
    Well said.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    That was not what I meant at all, and perhaps I should have been more clear. Much of what I said was in reference to things I have observed on this board in general (and I will continue to discuss things in this manner in this post). I think it is great that you enjoy other skaters so much, and I do not think that doing so and discussing it makes you a hater. I am referring to comments that actually use the word "soulless" to describe his skating (and I know this wasn't you which is why I did not actually attribute this comment to you, though I do see how it could have been interpreted that way) or imply this about his skating, and those that say that the only people who could enjoy Chan's skating are those with "an edge fetish," (or call him or his fans names). As The Accordian has pointed out, how can one assume that just because he/she/they is/are not moved by a person's skating that it is devoid of any artistic value and could not possibly mean something to someone else? I just don't see any reason to belittle people for loving Patrick Chan or any other skater for that matter. And sometimes it is these people, the ones who post in such a manner, who get very defensive and at times even aggressive when others challenge them on it.

    As for the Chan fans getting defensive, it is hard not to when you see him being trashed over and over again (and I am not referring to normal criticism of his skating or scoring here). And there is a difference between "polic[ing] threads about him, ... excoriat[ing] and complain[ing] about anyone who is the slightest bit critical or who makes the slightest fun (not even of him, but of the way he's been consistently over-scored, and over-hyped)" and disagreeing with with some of the criticism about Patrick or how he is being scored. I agree that some fans (not just of Patrick, but of other skaters) do the former, but sometimes I also think that those who do the latter are thrown into the same category.

    I did not say that what you said about Chan's exhibition was "disrespectful," I just said that it did not indicate to me that you thought he performed well. I was teasing a bit and that is why I used the

    And lastly, you are right, we should all try our best not to misinterpret posts and make assumptions.
    Two things

    First, I am not a fan of Chan, but have said it before that I think his scores are in line with what the judges are to do with scoring. Frankly any other male skater would fall down doing the transitions and edge work that Chan does between elements, and if they could do it, they surely wouldn't execute the jump or spin. So I think all this is a bunch of complainers who should be wondering why other men wave their arms and think they look like Chan.

    Second, Bournekraatzfan. Let me give you some advise about dealing with some of the people on this site, and it comes directly from Mark Twain. He said "Never argue with stupid people, as they will surely bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience".

  5. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    I sometimes even think it’s part of the problem why he makes stupid mistakes: he just can’t keep tension and concentration as he just doesn’t care knowing he wins anyway.
    I don't think any skater putting 40 hours/week training their butt off doesn't care about making mistakes. Or any athlete... If they really didn't care, they would be training for the least amoubt time possible.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Christy is a technical specialist (I like this lady very much and am certain she will work wonders with other skaters needing quads) and Patrick has so much praise for her and her methods in the interview. Don't think Christy will be short of students.
    And to add on this, Patrick's scores for this past season, his TES was higher than his PCS. So maybe he sees where he has to improve, which is the PCS mark, so he's going to spend more time on dance and other things, and Christy's not going to be able to help much.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkaug View Post
    I wish the next coach will teach him humbleness.
    I can't stand that he says something disrespectful to other skaters.
    He may not mean it but it's not fun to hear.
    He's been very humble, so not sure what you are talking about.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks1227 View Post
    Chan obviously likes to keep pushing himself, and he's willing to make changes in the people he works with in order to do so. When it was necessary to increase his technical difficulty, he started working more with Krall, and that led to the split with Laws (and also got him a lot of criticism here). But it was obviously the right decision for Chan, in spite of all the folks who second-guessed him at the time. Now he wants to work on the "artistic" side of his skating (according to one of the articles linked here), and so he's looking for more input from someone else. This is exactly the area of his skating that a lot of folks on this board seem to complain about, now that he has more difficult jump content on top of his exceptional skating skills. Just go through any number of threads and count the times people jabber on about "I just can't feel his skating," "Chan doesn't feel his music," "Chan doesn't make me feel his music," blah blah . I don't have a lot of patience for all the whining from fans about his supposed deficiencies in the "artistic" side; but to the extent that he can improve in this area and wants to do so, I really don't think Krall had more to give him. She's been a great coach for Chan, but that's just not her strength.

    So I think this could be very good for Chan. I hope he's able to keep pushing himself and comes back next year for a third World title followed by a Gold medal in Sochi!
    100% agree!

    I don't think Chan has problem with his artistry. But of course, he can always improved on it. I just hope that he can keep his jumps though.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    In any case, Jeremy hasn't exactly received over-inflated marks after poor performances, unlike Patrick Chan. Doesn't mean that PChid didn't deserve to win a lot of times, but I believe Dai has deserved a lot better scores too on several occasions and at least a couple of wins against Patrick in some past competitions.
    Abbott and Dai got held up MORE from their PCS than Chan when they all made mistakes.

    A lot of talk here about Patrick wanting to concentrate more on improving his artistry. Good that he recognizes he needs to improve in that aspect of his skating, despite all his uber fans' claims that he is "to die for" musically and artistically.
    You see, improvement is always a good thing. Patrick wanting to improve his skate and artistry does NOT mean he's not good artistically.

    As I've said before, Patrick, IMO has average musical and artistic skills, but his superb SS tend to overcompensate for his weaknesses musically and artistically.
    I judges and many people disagreed. Besides his great SS, his choreo, his transitions, interpretation of the music also helped his PCS.

    It was the over-hyping by Canadian media and then as time passed the over-scoring by ISU judges for Pat's poor performances that played the larger role in turning me off. Many of Patrick's fans have been a turn-off too.
    Which country is not hyping their top skaters? I never get turned off my Patrick's scores because they were not over scored.

    I just find it's amazing that you get every chance, even in this "coach/skater splitting" thread to whine about the same old same old..."Chan sux at artistry" "Chan's over-scored" blah blah blah.

    The conundrum and frustration for Chan, IMHO, is that he has been rewarded so often in areas where rewards were not really due, so that it becomes more complicated I think for him to figure out where he actually stands against his competitors. In the judges' eyes, Chan can do no wrong because his SS are seemingly so perfect. Good that Chan realizes and/ or is taking heed from some mentors in skating that he can improve his artistry and presentation.
    He deserved every competition he had won. He may not have had perfect skate in some competitions, NOR OTHER SKATERS.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    Sorry, I didn't name him because I was thinking about the men who competed in the GP circuit and Worlds, but yes, you are right. Plushenko's consistency is amazing, but also very rare. That was more the point I was trying to make as some posters make it seem like Patrick is the only skater in the men's field who is making mistakes.
    Tell me about it! Some people just seem to know that Patrick makes mistakes but don't seem to remember other skaters make mistakes too. He had ONE falls in his last 3 competitions, 2 perfect Nationals, 2 almost perfect 4CC and 1 waxel fall at World. Yet, it seems like he's the only one making loads of mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    I think the problem many posters have with Patrick, is not that he is the only skater in the men’s field making mistakes, but that he is the only one who wins every time even when making mistakes. Don’t get me wrong – I looove skaters with great basic skating skills, and I very much liked Patrick when he came on the scene.
    He won because OTHER SKATERS made mistakes too.

    However, what is happening now with judges not properly marking mistakes, is not a good thing – and I think it’s in particular not good for Patrick if he is rewarded by the judges when making mistakes the way it is. I sometimes even think it’s part of the problem why he makes stupid mistakes: he just can’t keep tension and concentration as he just doesn’t care knowing he wins anyway. Plus there is less motivation for him to develop and to try out something new.
    That's total BS. How did he get rewarded with mistakes? If you read the protocol, he got penalized on his mistakes like EVERYONE else. And also, I don't even know where you get this idea that he doesn't care about his mistakes.

    In addition I think that losing a competition when skating not well might be a character-building exercise. – What I really found annoying with him recently, were statements like stupid mistakes are his trademark or stating he delivered a “good product” after a subpar skate. No one will kill him but just pay respect when he openly admits he made mistakes or he didn’t skate his best and has to do better next time.
    He will lose a competition when other skaters skate better than him. And didn't he admit that he's behind the music at World?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    That's fair. They are all incredibly talented, and I feel that Jeremy has been consistently undermarked in PCS. I would also have given Dai higher IN and P/E scores than he received from many of the judges this season. I sometimes wonder how much certain judges differentiate btw PCS categories.
    That's the totally opposite of the fact. Abbott had a very poor Short Skate at world, and he's 3rd highest in PCS.

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Yes, Bournekraatzfan, to many I am apparently "a hater." Guess that's just the cross I have to bear. You make some interesting points, many of which I have no argument with. I guess it is too much to ask for you and others to not misinterpret my posts, make assumptions, or assign negative connotations to everything I have to say about Patrick.
    And would you do the same about Chan? You don't seem to have anything but negative things to say about Chan, and also assumptions about judging issues and inflated marks.

    I see you posted my comments from another thread. Fine, if you think my feelings about Chan's wonderfully performed and choreographed Worlds exhibition are "disrespectful" to Patrick, so be it. That's the thing about some Chan fans seeming to feel such a need to defend him, to police threads about him, to excoriate and complain about anyone who is the slightest bit critical or who makes the slightest fun (not even of him, but of the way he's been consistently over-scored, and over-hyped). By simply pointing out skaters who "capture my heart," I guess that means to you I find Chan "soulless," even tho' I've never said that.
    Some Chan fans defend him because of some posters like to make baseless accusations, assumptions that have no proof whatsoever.

    All I have to say is, sigh, yet another thread turns into more Chan bashing, more Chan whining about scoring and blah blah blah...
    Last edited by jettasian; 04-18-2012 at 05:07 AM.

  11. #211
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    The tendency to whining and complaining may be taken as the surest sign symptom of little souls and inferior intellects. ~Lord Jeffrey


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    Yep, jettasian, blah blah blah yet again blah, which is apparently Chan fan strategy to blanket any thread that has any hint of criticism of their hero. Forget about anything complimentary that is also mentioned -- just nitpick on the critiques you dislike, and flame all the critics until they go away so the thread can then be free of noise from critics and filled with ooh blah and ahhh from admiring fans and "respectful" others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    ...or maybe it helps some of us better understand how a skater's performance was assessed, and thus acts as a reference in discussions about results (though I agree that IJS is not perfect, and I never claimed that it was).
    Sure, IJS most definitely provides a lot of fodder for discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    You state this "as a fact", then object to (or deride) those who defend Chan, suggesting that they are being "defensive"? Okay...
    Yep, I'll say it again, "over-scored and over-hyped."


    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    That was not what I meant at all, and perhaps I should have been more clear. Much of what I said was in reference to things I have observed on this board in general (and I will continue to discuss things in this manner in this post)...
    Thanks for being "more clear."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    ...how can one assume that just because he/she/they is/are not moved by a person's skating that it is devoid of any artistic value and could not possibly mean something to someone else? ...
    Hmmmm whoever "he/ she/ they is/ are" surely they is/ are able to be moved without everyone who is not, having to be, just because Chan and his SS rule, according to the judges and IJS. BTW, "devoid of any artistic value" is quite the exaggeration. If anyone ever said that Chan's skating is "devoid of any artistic value," wow, that's shameful and furthermore, not factual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    ... As for the Chan fans getting defensive, it is hard not to when you see him being trashed over and over again (and I am not referring to normal criticism of his skating or scoring here)...
    Whatever "normal criticism" means, you must be right. Yes, obviously "it is hard" for Chan fans to see their hero derided in any way shape or form. Nothing but the highest of compliments are in order for such a great skater as he. Apparently tho', it's not so hard for Chan fans and "neutral" others to give naughty Chan detractors a blah blah talking to. How dare anyone slight Patrick Chan in any way, much less boo him? Or was it the marks or the judges the Nice audience was booing ... whoops, no, there were no boos -- b/c the boos were edited out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    ... And there is a difference between "polic[ing] threads about him, ... excoriat[ing] and complain[ing] about anyone who is the slightest bit critical or who makes the slightest fun (not even of him, but of the way he's been consistently over-scored, and over-hyped)" and disagreeing with with some of the criticism about Patrick or how he is being scored. I agree that some fans (not just of Patrick, but of other skaters) do the former, but sometimes I also think that those who do the latter are thrown into the same category.
    Okay, no please there's no need to be more clear. Whatever you said is very reasonable and respectable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    ... I did not say that what you said about Chan's exhibition was "disrespectful," I just said that it did not indicate to me that you thought he performed well. I was teasing a bit and that is why I used the
    ...


    Quote Originally Posted by ProgrammerUSFS
    ... Mark Twain .. said "Never argue with stupid people, as they will surely bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience".
    Mark Twain made a good point, and he definitely had a way with words. His books and his aphorisms will continue to live on ...

    In the context of this thread, I would rephrase slightly:

    Never argue with the Chan gang as they will surely bring you down to their level, and beat you over the head with “incroyable” blah blah and Patrick’s superior SS.

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    Its so refreshing to read back to the thread on superior skating edges and read the warm comments made by others on Patrick. Even Daisuke and Yuzuru have respect for him. I think he is truly a skater's skater. People who have skated before would understand.
    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=75711

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    Ah yes, Patrick has gorgeous edges and everyone who loves skating, everyone who is a skater can surely appreciate what Patrick can do with his blades. Quite mesmerizing and lovely. IMO, it is a shame that Pat's growth and development as a skater, not to mention his competitive desire has been limited and in a sense "trashed" by the rush to over-hype his immeasurable talents and to over-score his every performance ever since he displayed commendable quad mastery.

    Perhaps he will be able to rise above the limitations ironically imposed by the excessive praise from those who love his talent and by the judges who love the way he skates.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post

    Perhaps he will be able to rise above the limitations ironically imposed by the excessive praise from those who love his talent and by the judges who love the way he skates.
    Who knows maybe some day he will become World champion.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    I sometimes even think it’s part of the problem why he makes stupid mistakes: he just can’t keep tension and concentration as he just doesn’t care knowing he wins anyway. Plus there is less motivation for him to develop and to try out something new.

    In addition I think that losing a competition when skating not well might be a character-building exercise. – What I really found annoying with him recently, were statements like stupid mistakes are his trademark or stating he delivered a “good product” after a subpar skate. No one will kill him but just pay respect when he openly admits he made mistakes or he didn’t skate his best and has to do better next time.
    I don't read his remarks the way you do Katarzyna.

    Patrick has never taken his competitors for granted (and that he clearly stated so in many past interviews). (Common sense dictates a true competitor will never take any competitors for granted). No one likes making mistakes and his face always show that when he makes errors and is not too happy with his own skating. Patrick is an open book.

    As for his comments like 'it's not me if I don't make the silly mistake' is meant to admit he has made the silly mistake in light hearted joking manner. Yes, that's Patrick being Patrick .. always the 'joker' we all know him to be. It is unfortunate that you misinterpret him because he did not express the way you want him to. And he did openly admit his mistake if you have listened to the interview. He explained why the waxel happend.

    And as for not trying to improve, how do you think he managed to up his technical skills thus far? Did you watch the tapes on his training regime? Five full days a week of training away from family and friends. If that is not hard work, sacrifice and dedication, what would you call it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Who knows maybe some day he will become World champion.

  18. #218
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    "Can Patrick Chan's only skating coach be a modern dance teacher?" http://www.examiner.com/ice-skating-...-dance-teacher
    (Note: The author is the same person who wrote the about.com profile article on Kathy Johnson that was linked earlier in this thread.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    "Can Patrick Chan's only skating coach be a modern dance teacher?" http://www.examiner.com/ice-skating-...-dance-teacher
    (Note: The author is the same person who wrote the about.com profile article on Kathy Johnson that was linked earlier in this thread.)
    Is the author of this Joshua Farris's mother?

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafter View Post
    Is the author of this Joshua Farris's mother?
    No.

    http://figureskating.about.com/bio/J...rris-19555.htm

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