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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    To give credit where it is due, while Chan beat Lysacek at the 2009 4C's, Lysacek beat Chan at the 2010 Olympics and at 2009 Worlds, their only encounter at Worlds, and Chan only went head-to-head with Plushenko once, in Vancouver, while Lysacek competed against Plushenko three times: at 2005 Worlds, from which Plushenko had to withdraw due to injury, and at 2006 and 2010 Olympics. Lysacek also won bronze at his first senior Worlds.

    Lambiel competed against Yagudin at 2002 Worlds and Plushenko at 2003-2005 Worlds and at the 2006 and 2010 Olympics.
    But you can't really draw conclusions from these comparisons, especially since Chan didn't have a quad or a great 3X when he was beat by Lysacek and Plushenko. And Lysacek was at the peak of his career, Plushenko still strong with a quad, but declining.

    And of course you can't compare 6.0 to CoP, which I think would have naturally boosted Lambiel - though of course had Yagudin and Plushenko been groomed in CoP, as Patrick was, who knows how things would have shaken out.

    Chan is currently the one being hunted, like Yags and Plush.

    Whether he can carry it through to 2014 remains to be seen. At the moment I would say that Hanyu could be the one to rise up and challenge Chan. I think Chan may have the unfortunate situation of peaking before 2014, whereas Hanyu reminds me a bit of Chan ascending.

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinakt View Post
    The first 50 seconds or so of every skater are a 'set-up time', when they do the first, often hardest jumps, and neither Chan nor Takahashi nor anybody in the world is expected to interpret a 4T. But afterwards, I do not understand the claim that Takahashi does not have an interesting musical interpretation.
    I don't think anyone disagrees with you on Takahashi's musical interpretation. It is fantastic. But what Rock2 was analysing is how much of the program had interpretation and how much had set up. In response to the initial question being asked, comments have been made about how much time is spent setting up but also during that set up how much he may have fallen out of the musical interpretation side during that.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    That's the whole point. Could Abbott skate his entire program a measure off (or even a portion of it) and still have the same impact? Absolutely not, because his movements are so detailed and so in tune with the harmonic changes, not just the rhythm. That is where skaters like Abbott and Takahashi are miles above Chan, and they should be rewarded for it in the appropriate PCS categories.
    But I don't think the program had the same impact because of how it was off. The loop, for example, didn't work as wel because the hand movements don't jive as beautifully as they did before. Because he was behind, you could see Chan rushing his movements before the second lutz all the way to the end (the reason for the waxel) and that also negated some of the programs impact.

    I'm just startled to hear people say that Chan's program had the same impact, I guess, because I don't think that's true.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    But you can't really draw conclusions from these comparisons, especially since Chan didn't have a quad or a great 3X when he was beat by Lysacek and Plushenko.
    On the contrary, WRT Lysacek, Lysacek was eminently beatable with his technical content in all three cases -- 2009 4C's, 2009 Worlds, and 2010 Olympics, but Chan beat him once in three tries.

    At 2009 4C's (and at 2009 Worlds), the only difference in jump content in the SP was that Chan did 3F/3T and solo 3Lz, while Lysacek did 3Lz/3T and solo 3F, which earns the same base score. The difference in the rest of base was 1 point, due to Chan getting two-L4's where Lysacek got two L3's. Chan earned a whopping 5 points more in +GOE, and he received his second highest GOE (avg 2.0) for his 3A, higher than Lysacek received for his (.4). At Worlds 2009, Chan received his highest GOE on his 3A (1.6), again higher than Lysacek received (1). Lysacek edged Chan in the SP in LA, because Lysacek had higher PCS.

    In the FS at 2009 4C's (and 2009 Worlds), the only difference in planned jump content was that Chan did 3F/3T and 3Lz/2/2 and Lysacek did 3Lz/3T and 3F/2/2, which earns the same base score. At 4C's, because Chan singled his planned 3A in combo, which lowered his base considerably, Lysacek outscored Chan in TES by .61, although Chan outscored him in +GOE and levels almost as considerably, and Chan had significantly higher PCS.

    In the FS at 2009 Worlds, Chan scored 1.0 GOE on his solo 3A, while Lysacek scored .2 GOE on his. As at 4C's, Chan had trouble with the 3A combo: he singled the toe in his 3A combo, received -.56 GOE, while Lysacek landed his 3A/2T with .2 GOE, and Chan also doubled the loop. Again, he received more in levels and GOE than Lysacek, but not enough to close the gap in his base score, and Lysacek outscored him in PCS, although not nearly as decisively as Chan beat Lysacek in PCS at 4C's.

    Even in his first WC's, Chan received .57 GOE for his solo 3A in the SP and 1.29 GOE for his solo 3A in his FS, but received -3 GOE + -1 fall points for his 3A combo attempt (and got no credit for a Zayak violation).

    After doing a solo 3A brilliantly, but flubbing the 3A combo in his first three major championships, Chan messed up both solo 3A's at the Olympics, but did earn 1.6 GOE on his opening 3A/2T combination, so go figure. At 2010 Worlds, where neither Lysacek nor Plushenko competed, he was back to his old pattern: 1.0 GOE on the 3A in the SP, 1.6 GOE on the 3A in the FS, and -1.68 in the opening 3A/2T attempt.

    Considering that Chan received higher GOE on his solo 3A in four of his first five championships/Olympics than many other skaters, I don't buy his not-so-great 3A, at least in championships, where he delivered 80% of the time and with superior GOE. He had a not-so-great (20% success rate) on his 3A combo.

    Lysacek skating strongly and confidently at the Olympics, and Chan admittedly beat himself mentally. However, the differential between Lysacek's very strong skates and Chan's weak ones in PCS was only 1.3 in the SP and .8 in FS, and the big differential wasn't in planned content, in which he had a slight edge via levels, but in quality of the technical elements, which Chan proved at 2009 4C's that he was capable of delivering better than Lysacek.

    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    And Lysacek was at the peak of his career, Plushenko still strong with a quad, but declining.
    Lysacek was certainly not at his technical peak in the 2009-2010 period, since he had to drop the quad due to injury. We'll see next season, with the return of a healthy Lysacek with at least a quad, whether Lysacek has already peaked.

    As far as Plushenko was concerned, regardless of the scores he received in Vancouver, he was a shadow of his former self, and if he was beatable by Lysacek in 2010, he should have been beatable by Chan, who beat himself out of two world titles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    And of course you can't compare 6.0 to CoP, which I think would have naturally boosted Lambiel - though of course had Yagudin and Plushenko been groomed in CoP, as Patrick was, who knows how things would have shaken out.
    Sure I can: especially under 6.0, a dominant skater like Yagudin or Plushenko was a more formidable glass ceiling, and early years of CoP were marked more like 6.0 than they are now, especially with the judges ignoring under-rotations and incorrect edges, now the responsibility of the technical panel.

    Lambiel, even with his quads but inconsistent 3A, had much more formidable competition competing against Yagudin and Plushenko with quads and 3A's, than Chan has had competing against Lysacek without quads, a substandard (for him) Plushenko in Vancouver, and Takahashi still trying to re-gain his quads after surgery. Lambiel couldn't make up the technical difference in spins, in which he should have murdered Yagudin, Plushenko, and Joubert for that matter, and FW under 6.0, while Chan gets credit for each of his elements under CoP.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    That's the whole point. Could Abbott skate his entire program a measure off (or even a portion of it) and still have the same impact? Absolutely not, because his movements are so detailed and so in tune with the harmonic changes, not just the rhythm. That is where skaters like Abbott and Takahashi are miles above Chan, and they should be rewarded for it in the appropriate PCS categories.
    Chan's choreo is also very detailed, each movement is precised and matched to the music. No, Abbott and Tak are NOT miles above Chan. It's more like the other way around. Chan's a whole package skater. I can't say the same about the other two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinakt View Post
    ... and I am sorry, Rock2, I disagree with your musical analysis as well. The first 50 seconds or so of every skater are a 'set-up time', when they do the first, often hardest jumps, and neither Chan nor Takahashi nor anybody in the world is expected to interpret a 4T.


    Thank you. Good lord, Chan does about 10 sec of opening choreo and then spends the next 60 seconds doing crossovers and basic stroking to set up the two quads and triple axel. Sure there's a little one-foot turn here and a little arm flair here that goes nice with the music and shows off his outstanding edges, but it's your basic, "pick up speed, concentrate on your mechanics and get the jump landed" opening minute of any elite men's program. I don't see where he differs significantly from Takahashi or any other man in the top 12 in the world.

    Whatevs.



    ... and does anyone really think the judges really analyze this level of detailed sh!t in the 60 seconds or so they have to punch in their PCS marks? Please. They watch it, and judge on impact, instinct and what's managed to stick in their working memory. Mark your overall impression and mark it quickly. Move on. The analysis required by CoP is way too heavy a cognitive load for any human being.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by BreakfastClub View Post

    ... and does anyone really think the judges really analyze this level of detailed sh!t in the 60 seconds or so they have to punch in their PCS marks? Please. They watch it, and judge on impact, instinct and what's managed to stick in their working memory. Mark your overall impression and mark it quickly. Move on. The analysis required by CoP is way too heavy a cognitive load for any human being.
    This is precisely the question I have re PCS in the CoP. If you concentrate on TES and GOE do you have time to mark PCS? I have a speculative theory (I'd love to hear insider information) that judges watch this season's performances on YouTube to get familiar with them and to confirm what to watch out for, and prepare their approach to scoring, in advance of the actual competitions they judge, so that they can later defend their scoring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belinda View Post
    This is precisely the question I have re PCS in the CoP. If you concentrate on TES and GOE do you have time to mark PCS?
    Remember that GOE is the only part of TES that judges have to focus on. They don't have to worry about levels -- the tech panel does that. They don't have to worry about how many points anything is worth -- the computer does that. All they have to do is watch an element, see what looks good or bad about it, and mark a GOE, or make a note to come back to it (e.g., to see if the tech panel will downgrade a suspicious landing).

    I have a speculative theory (I'd love to hear insider information) that judges watch this season's performances on YouTube to get familiar with them and to confirm what to watch out for, and prepare their approach to scoring, in advance of the actual competitions they judge, so that they can later defend their scoring.
    Obviously they can't do that for the first competition of the season, or for skaters whose performances are not posted on youtube. Which is the vast majority of skaters that they will need to judge over the course of the season.

    If there's buzz in the skating world, positive or negative, about a performance a judge hasn't had the opportunity to see live, s/he may seek out a video to see what everyone's been talking about. And yeah, past performances they've seen from this skater will probably have some influence on how the judge perceives the current one they're judging. But they have to have a positive process for assigning PCS to programs they've never seen before, which is most of what they do all year. You don't get to be a world judge if all you know how to do is fit your scores to what the other judges are doing.

  9. #129
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    What does Takahashi need?
    To be canadian, half chinese, skate to overused music with the same facial expression and his name needs to be Chan not Takahashi.
    That's all he need...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanja90 View Post
    What does Takahashi need?
    To be canadian, half chinese, skate to overused music with the same facial expression and his name needs to be Chan not Takahashi.
    That's all he need...
    I guess that goes the same to Chan to become more popular to the fans: be Japanese, forget about your skating, just move your arms like crazy, make over dramatic facial expression, change the name to a Japanese name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    I guess that goes the same to Chan to become more popular to the fans: be Japanese, forget about your skating, just move your arms like crazy, make over dramatic facial expression, change the name to a Japanese name.
    Well..look at Takahashi' short program and if there you find "moving your arms like crazy" and "make over dramatic facial expression" tell me...

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanja90 View Post
    What does Takahashi need?
    To be canadian, half chinese, skate to overused music with the same facial expression and his name needs to be Chan not Takahashi.
    That's all he need...
    Chan is not half Chinese, he was born in Canada of full Chinese parental origin. His parents were both born in Hong Kong.

    Tak also needs to flow across the ice effortlessly with speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanette View Post
    I'll meet you in the vomitorium.
    I don't think there's enough room in that vomitorium to hold any more occupants. And people thought New Orleans looked deplorable after Katrina.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A judge View Post
    Chan is not half Chinese, he was born in Canada of full Chinese parental origin. His parents were both born in Hong Kong.

    Tak also needs to flow across the ice effortlessly with speed.
    Ok sorry for misunderstanding Chan's origins...

    I've been in Nice last week and I've seen both the short and long program and Daisuke stole the scene there..also I didn't find such difference between the two..expecially in the short..

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    I wouldn't (and wasn't) boil this down to the first 60 seconds. And I'm befuddled by references to Dai's more interesting interpretation. Perhaps you find Dai's charisma and music more interesting. That's not worth much unfortunately. His specific CH and IN are not.

    In the first 60 or so seconds when the big jumps are happening yes they are closer in comparison. However Patrick doesn't need to do more than 2-3. His SS are so great because he gets speed so efficiently and then he turns and/or pushes off his edges to maintain or gain speed going into the quad especially. Moreover, IMHO the little he does in set up acknowledges the music more than Dai does e.g. rocking on his edges to the music.

    The main difference though is seen throughout the program. Dinakt you comment about Dai's interesting choreo and interpretation and that's precisely where I think he should improve. He has a distinct lack of variety in his movement; outside of footwork he remains upright throughout the program and only interprets the music with his arms and facial expressions. His transitional footwork is simpler than Patricks and isn't always done to to the music.

    Patrick on the other hand uses his whole body to interpret the music and unlike Dai his movements are uniquely created to express the music. For many of Dai's arm movements it's almost like his choreographer said "ok and move your arms to the music however you want here..." vs Patrick's movements are very specific. I didn't see any of the following from Dai which makes his choreo and interpretation far less interesting: low to high body movement, expression with low to high knee movement, body leans, lunges, varied arm movement, use of head turns, hops, wide range of sharp and fluid arm movements...you get the idea

    And, overall, my point was Patrick also used and interpreted much more of the music than Dai did. I pointed out places where Dai skated right through the music which happened in a few places in different parts of the program.

    In my mind Patrick took this superior choreo and brought meaning and expression to it (you don't need to look up at the audience and smile with a "yeah I'm great" look on your face to get IN marks although the audience appreciates it). By the end of the year he made these moves look authentic and meaningful although I think he did it better at 4CC and nationals.

    Dai didn't do these things badly...he did them well. Compared to Patrick though, there was just less. Less variety, less use of the music, less uniqueness. And that's why he was deservedly lower.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post

    The main difference though is seen throughout the program. Dinakt you comment about Dai's interesting choreo and interpretation and that's precisely where I think he should improve. He has a distinct lack of variety in his movement; outside of footwork he remains upright throughout the program and only interprets the music with his arms and facial expressions. His transitional footwork is simpler than Patricks and isn't always done to to the music.

    Patrick on the other hand uses his whole body to interpret the music and unlike Dai his movements are uniquely created to express the music. For many of Dai's arm movements it's almost like his choreographer said "ok and move your arms to the music however you want here..." vs Patrick's movements are very specific. I didn't see any of the following from Dai which makes his choreo and interpretation far less interesting: low to high body movement, expression with low to high knee movement, body leans, lunges, varied arm movement, use of head turns, hops, wide range of sharp and fluid arm movements...you get the idea

    And, overall, my point was Patrick also used and interpreted much more of the music than Dai did. I pointed out places where Dai skated right through the music which happened in a few places in different parts of the program.
    Do you have any experience in the music or dance world? This is some funny stuff.

    Everyone has a right to their opinions, but the real problem here is the way that the judging has gone down. There are obviously observers who prefer one stylist to the other, but clearly the audiences as well as many posters here (some with performance degrees and experience) see Daisuke as a much more mature, complete performer. If that is the case, why is it that in EVERY competition, Patrick wins ALL areas of PCS EVERY single time? Surely, there must be some judges who feel that Daisuke is superior in some areas, but they stay in line with the panel and judge based on reputation.
    Last edited by Triple Butz; 04-08-2012 at 06:51 PM.

  17. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post
    I wouldn't (and wasn't) boil this down to the first 60 seconds. And I'm befuddled by references to Dai's more interesting interpretation. Perhaps you find Dai's charisma and music more interesting. That's not worth much unfortunately. His specific CH and IN are not.
    ...
    Patrick on the other hand uses his whole body to interpret the music and unlike Dai his movements are uniquely created to express the music. For many of Dai's arm movements it's almost like his choreographer said "ok and move your arms to the music however you want here..." vs Patrick's movements are very specific. I didn't see any of the following from Dai which makes his choreo and interpretation far less interesting: low to high body movement, expression with low to high knee movement, body leans, lunges, varied arm movement, use of head turns, hops, wide range of sharp and fluid arm movements...you get the idea.
    Yes, I get the idea - Patrick Chan must be superior to everyone, in everything, ever. It's not enough that he has strong skating skills, there will be articles about how he has the best edges ever. It's not enough that he gets good marks on the jumps, we must all admire his difficult entries, even if they are sometimes pretty much the same as many other skaters'. And it's not sufficient for him to get high IN marks, we must all believe that these marks reflect some kind of genius interpretation.

    Well, I disagree. I won't argue that Chan isn't a good skater; of course he is. But this over the top gushing and ultra-high scoring is really off-putting to many people, especially when it seems less than true to the reality we see on the ice.

    The bolded part, by the way, makes it seem like Dai is actually entrusted by his choreographer to interpret the music, while Patrick has to be told exactly what to do and when, or else he could never figure it out. Considering the frequent criticism that Chan is robotic and just going through the motions, is that really the argument you want to make?

  18. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Everyone has a right to their opinions, but the real problem here is the way that the judging has gone down. There are obviously observers who prefer one stylist to the other, but clearly the audiences as well as many posters here (some with performance degrees and experience) see Daisuke as a much more mature, complete performer. If that is the case, why is it that in EVERY competition, Patrick wins ALL areas of PCS EVERY single time? Surely, there must be some judges who feel that Daisuke is superior in some areas, but they stay in line with the panel and judge based on reputation.
    Not ALL of the audience agrees that Dai should have won. Not ALL of the posters think Dai has better intrepreation. Even Daisuke applauded Patrick's win.

    When you consistenly have a higher degree of difficulty in your elements, and in your choreography, you will consistely have higher scores. Why is that so difficult to understand? Everyone howls when a skater waters down their technical and gets high PCS scores. Dai waters down his choreography and people howl that he doesn't get higher PCS scores. Double standard at play here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Not ALL of the audience agrees that Dai should have won. Not ALL of the posters think Dai has better intrepreation. Even Daisuke applauded Patrick's win.

    When you consistenly have a higher degree of difficulty in your elements, and in your choreography, you will consistely have higher scores. Why is that so difficult to understand? Everyone howls when a skater waters down their technical and gets high PCS scores. Dai waters down his choreography and people howl that he doesn't get higher PCS scores. Double standard at play here.
    You've completely missed the point. The point is that SOME judging panels should see Daisuke as superior just like SOME (and I'm tempted to say most) observers do. That has never happened this season.

    When has Daisuke watered down his choreography? Do you even know what a double standard is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post
    Just want to give some specifics on Dai's program and then later compare to Usova Zhulin in 1993. Yes, different discipline, but many of the interpretation criteria are similar. I'll also highlight some pieces from Chan

    Here's a link to Dai in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI
    Usova/Zhulin 1993
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxseLaxl61s
    Chan in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4


    I love Dai; he's charismatic and invests himself emotionally. But you have to pull that out of the analysis because those intangibles only count for so much in the PE IN and CH marks. So many other things matter.

    His two main shortfalls are (compared to Chan)
    1. The number of opportunities missed to interpret the music in a meaningful way and
    2. The lack of variety in his movement and ways to interpret the music.

    As for #1, there are places in the program where he doesn't really acknowledge the music.

    The first main part is through first 3 elements (0-1:20)
    -other than first 15 sec of program not many body movements connected to the music. Three turns after quad count for transitions but don't connect to music. Almost none of the notes acknowledged although some good transitional moves

    Musical transition (2:53 - 4:00)
    -Intensity picks up in the music with more furtive string instrument work. Dai's energy does not similarly amp up and there is very little movement that connects to the music. He does move his arms around but not in relation to the music. This is the best example here of missed opportunities to highlight the music. Arm movements, simpler connecting footwork and head bops. All very good but not worthy of 9s

    Compare that section specifically...2:53 to about 3:10 to Usova/Zhulin 6:10 to 6:40. Same cut of music. U/Z hit the notes and varied their body movement. More importantly their energy and speed surged with the music whereas Dai kept to one level of energy and kept the choreo to simple arm movements. Doesn't compare. Note that just before this section he stripped out a number of transitional moves he had earlier in the year at the J.O.

    As for #2, watching the program again with a more critical eye, I've now become even more aware of the lack of variety in his movement compared to Patrick. I now find that Dai's program is again simple arm movements and simpler footwork movements and sporadic edge work. And, outside of footwork everything he does is completely upright. Comparatively easy.

    With Patrick I see something different. Already in the first 20 seconds he uses almost every edge and rocks on them to the music. His body goes from high to low which you never see from Dai. Impacts choreo and IN part depending on how judges see it.
    -Also unlike Dai Patrick is up and down in his knees to the music even going into his hard early jumps, something Dai never does.
    -3A lands on a musical transition. Harder to do and gets more credit.

    Patrick has a much more well developed vocabulary in edges and turns. He highlights almost all of the notes and with an incredible variety of movement that incorporates his entire body. Lots of hops, directional changes and varied arm movements that are sharp or fluid all relative to what the music dictates.

    I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

    Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.
    Your comparison was very interesting and I think you have highlighted some of their skating characteristics in common.

    But it is just the comparison between the free skating programs in this season and if you choose, for example, the short programs instead, the result might be slightly different.
    I think it is dangerous to say someone's stating is thus and other person's skating is thus from the comparison of just one program. (Do you know Dai said after the World in Nice he couldn't understand the blues even then? )

    I either don't understand the meaning of your comparison between Usova/Zhulinand and Dai in the same music.
    Even if the performance of Usova/Zhulin is excellent, I don't think every skater who skates to this music should dance like them.

    But your comparison of their free programs in this season was interesting. Thank you.

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