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  1. #101
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    I think he can get there. Skating needs stars and one of them is certainly Daisuke. I'm cool with him winning but he has to do it legitimately. I'd like to see him use more interesting and varied musical interpretation and do the biggest thing that Patrick does: maximize the difficulty of the in betweens. I don't skate but I understand the edge pushing, turns and high low movements take quite a bit out of skaters, so you need to be not only skilled but super fit. My understanding is this is why many top skaters don't do this stuff...because they can't. Doesn't leave enough energy to do the jumps.

    Anyway I'm glad people took my post positively. Dai does many things very well, just not as well as Patrick according to CoP.

    I know he has very good edges but I wonder about his overall skating skills.
    Check the transitional turns he attempted at 3:02 mark of the Japan Open. Turning clockwise on his right foot. Did it badly. A few more turns and he might have gone down. This move subsequently was pulled from the program and replaced by essentially nothing. Leaves me wondering what he's actually able to do...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8G3fo8Lzow

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubletoe View Post
    Takahashi beats Chan on spins because he does spins with a higher base value and gets +GOE on top of that, for a higher total spin score. If Chan can do higher valued spins and get the same GOE, then he should. Takahashi and Kozuka are both brilliant at selecting spins that have the highest base values, then getting level 4's and +GOE on them.
    That spin was a planned level 4 spin. He messed up the camel at this particular skate causing the spin to be downgraded. Doesn't mean he is capable of doing a level 4 flying combo spin. In fact, despite the messed up camel, he still got higher GOEs than Takahashi on that particular element.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    He needs to workd on skating skills to maintain the edge a little longer. He has everything and would have been multiple times World Champion without Patrick Chan being here. But Patrick Chan is here.
    Hardly on both counts. Takahashi was never a dominant skater. His one and only time coming 2nd to Chan at a Worlds he was only 3rd in both the SP and LP. Chan has only won Worlds twice himself, you talk about him as if he is some all time great, but he has achieved less than skaters Lysacek or Lambiel so far.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Hardly on both counts. Takahashi was never a dominant skater. His one and only time coming 2nd to Chan at a Worlds he was only 3rd in both the SP and LP. Chan has only won Worlds twice himself, you talk about him as if he is some all time great, but he has achieved less than skaters Lysacek or Lambiel so far.
    For someone who likes to throw medal statistics to defend arguments, this one doesn't stand up too well. Other than an Olympic medal of which Lambiel has one from 3 attempts and Lysacek one (albeit the OGM) from two attempts, Chan pretty much trumps both in terms of medals won and certainly his two silvers and two golds in the last 4 worlds is a better record than either skater. Plus he's the WR holder for SP, LP and combined score under IJS - scores which far outstrip anything Lambiel or Lysacek ever achieved. If Chan is destined to win a medal at the Olympics, it will happen in Sochi.

    Rock2 - Excellent posts in this thread. Some sanity amidst the madness

  5. #105
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    Aren't you forgetting a few World medals (titles) for Lambiel?
    In my spare time, I like to interview figure skating legends.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by manleywoman View Post
    Aren't you forgetting a few World medals (titles) for Lambiel?
    Lambiel has two golds and one bronze at Worlds, Lysacek has one gold and two bronze medals, and Patrick has 2 gold and 2 silver. Therefore Patrick's record at Worlds in terms of medals comes out on top

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post

    I don't think the fall on the axel impacted on the IN. I wouldn't have even known that he was playing catch up or wasn't with the music until the very end when he finished afterwards.
    That explains so much...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    That explains so much...
    It wasn't as though at that point he was hitting very specific moments in the music and doing it totally off the mark - like a film that is not synched up properly. He was still skating to the beat and the tempo - the overall feel of the music.

    It is similar when you are doing a Compulsory Dance you can start at any beat and still be dancing to the music extremely well.

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    It is similar when you are doing a Compulsory Dance you can start at any beat and still be dancing to the music extremely well.
    Well, not any beat. But it's better to be a whole measure or a whole phrase behind and still be on the beat than to be one beat behind.

  10. #110
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    I only know that he's behind his music because I have seen the program many times. For general people who just saw it the first time, or only whenever that program's skated, they'd not be able to tell that he's behind the music. Thus, the impact is minimum.

  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Well, not any beat. But it's better to be a whole measure or a whole phrase behind and still be on the beat than to be one beat behind.
    Thanks for the correction! That is what I meant!

    If a CD starts on beat 1 then as long as you start on beat 1 you are still on time. And the dance still works in style and rhythm in a different section of the music.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    Lambiel has two golds and one bronze at Worlds, Lysacek has one gold and two bronze medals, and Patrick has 2 gold and 2 silver. Therefore Patrick's record at Worlds in terms of medals comes out on top
    Chan also won four World medals in a row after his first Worlds, in which he placed 9th.

    To give credit where it is due, while Chan beat Lysacek at the 2009 4C's, Lysacek beat Chan at the 2010 Olympics and at 2009 Worlds, their only encounter at Worlds, and Chan only went head-to-head with Plushenko once, in Vancouver, while Lysacek competed against Plushenko three times: at 2005 Worlds, from which Plushenko had to withdraw due to injury, and at 2006 and 2010 Olympics. Lysacek also won bronze at his first senior Worlds.

    Lambiel competed against Yagudin at 2002 Worlds and Plushenko at 2003-2005 Worlds and at the 2006 and 2010 Olympics.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    I wouldn't have even known that he was playing catch up or wasn't with the music until the very end when he finished afterwards.
    That's because the choreography was only made to collect points and his body movements had nothing to do with the music to begin with.

    I would notice if the picture and audio are out of sync for a fraction of a second in Takahashi's video.
    Last edited by mikeko; 04-06-2012 at 02:58 PM.

  14. #114
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    Takahashi is a charismatic skater. He's very musical and is already very good among the top few. Just skate his best and continue his great skating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko View Post
    That's because the choreography was only made to collect points and his body movements had nothing to do with the music to begin with.
    That is mean... But I have to agree. Chan's free program reminds me a little bit of a cd as well. Very precise footwork, great transitions... not much emotionality, definitely no crowd pleaser.

    Anyway, I would rather ask what Chan needs to do. By now, he is certainly on the top. He is on the peak of his abilities, but still not very appreciated by the crowds and, according to his own complaints, not even very popular in Canada. Furthermore, he has to make sure that he needs to worry if he will be on the top in two years. Not to win in Sotchi would be really a disappointment for Chan.
    For Takahashi, I think, this is an encore. He had serious injuries, and came back, planned to finish his career years ago but is still there. He had an olympic medal, a world title. Plus he is the first man from Japan to achieve this and a top star in his country. Whatever he will achieve in the future is the icing on the cake.
    I just hope he will find new music and get new programs he loves to skate... get more consistent with the quad and continues to compete till 2014.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonSet View Post
    That is mean... But I have to agree. Chan's free program reminds me a little bit of a cd as well. Very precise footwork, great transitions... not much emotionality, definitely no crowd pleaser.

    Anyway, I would rather ask what Chan needs to do. By now, he is certainly on the top. He is on the peak of his abilities, but still not very appreciated by the crowds and, according to his own complaints, not even very popular in Canada. Furthermore, he has to make sure that he needs to worry if he will be on the top in two years. Not to win in Sotchi would be really a disappointment for Chan.
    For Takahashi, I think, this is an encore. He had serious injuries, and came back, planned to finish his career years ago but is still there. He had an olympic medal, a world title. Plus he is the first man from Japan to achieve this and a top star in his country. Whatever he will achieve in the future is the icing on the cake.
    I just hope he will find new music and get new programs he loves to skate... get more consistent with the quad and continues to compete till 2014.
    That's the whole point. Could Abbott skate his entire program a measure off (or even a portion of it) and still have the same impact? Absolutely not, because his movements are so detailed and so in tune with the harmonic changes, not just the rhythm. That is where skaters like Abbott and Takahashi are miles above Chan, and they should be rewarded for it in the appropriate PCS categories.

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko View Post
    That's because the choreography was only made to collect points and his body movements had nothing to do with the music to begin with.

    I would notice if the picture and audio are out of sync for a fraction of a second in Takahashi's video.
    No it means he was still hitting beats of the music and he was still with the music. For me it still worked.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko View Post
    I would notice if the picture and audio are out of sync for a fraction of a second in Takahashi's video.
    That is what I noticed about Takahashi. He was stroking between elements and not to the music. It was jarring.

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post
    He's not far off. If he has 1-2 consistent quads in short and long that's most of it. He does two 3As so that helps.

    Blues for Klook is a great piece of music and I don't think judges hate it. My problem with that music is that it is so dense in terms of content and phrasing it's hard to interpret it perfectly without exhausting yourself in the program. As a result, I feel that Dai didn't use half the notes and phrases and skated through a lot of it without acknowledging many of the musical nuances...or not interpreting them well enough. To me that's why IN is a bit back. He was emotionally invested but didn't interpret all that the music brought to the table.

    Rodrigo on the other hand, while being slightly overused now is very even paced and allowed Lori and Patrick to use pretty much every note and phrase, thus the higher marks IMHO.

    No one can rightfully touch Patrick right now in SS but Dai can get close. He has to make it up in other areas.
    I am afraid I completely disagree. I watched Takahashi's LP many times, concentrating on his feet and the rhythm he gives to his every turn of the blade. What is remarkable is his use of synchopation throughout the piece, the way he accentuated the rhythm and phrasing, and how he accelerates with the rhythm towards the end as the complexity grows. That last straight-line step -sequence is a marvel of musical precision. I get really upset with posters ( not talking about the poster above whom I quoted) who try to reduce Takahashi's artistry to facial expressions and "charisma". I could not care less about facial expressions, and am often wary of charisma. I look at the feet, at the upper body, and at the ways they relate to music; how upper body relates to melodic gesture, and how the feet relate to rhythm.
    ... and I am sorry, Rock2, I disagree with your musical analysis as well. The first 50 seconds or so of every skater are a 'set-up time', when they do the first, often hardest jumps, and neither Chan nor Takahashi nor anybody in the world is expected to interpret a 4T. But afterwards, I do not understand the claim that Takahashi does not have an interesting musical interpretation.
    Difficulty of talking about those things lies in the fact that it is hard to verbalize music. With the best of them ( and certainly Takahashi, starting from about one minute in), I feel that I can write the rhythmic variation they do with the blade above the existing score, and it will become its own melodic/rhymical line, enhansing the music; every measure is different and thought- out, not interchangeable. Like polyphony, with an added line for a skater's feet. There are no contrasting moods in "Blues for Klook"; what there is is a constant pull between the tension of long vibrating notes and the emotion of the quick ones, with the build-up towards the end ( not unlike Ravel's "Bolero", only of more sensual nature). That is exactly what Daisuke does with his footwork throughout; with speed and amplitude of movement increasing towards the end. But alas, talking in terms so general does little, and it is frustrating. All I can suggest is watching his feet, feeling 123123 of the music, feeling the melodic ups and downs and looking at how Daisuke's blade weaves an additional musical line.
    Last edited by dinakt; 04-07-2012 at 07:18 AM.
    improving my ballad- like lines

  20. #120

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    Whole post. Thanks for your astute analysis, dinakt. Do you feel Dai should have beat Patrick? How would you have scored them on PCS?

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