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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Artists are born not made
    So are athletes.

  2. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    For example, are they able to give credible literal appraisals about each performance and capable of identify with small degree of musicality difference between the 10 skaters performing to the same music and rank them in order?
    IMO few skaters are naturally musical, at least at the top level, because the athleticism needed to get there is fundamental. You can be the most musical skater in the world, but you'll never make it to the world stage without progressing beyond doubles.

    There is also the quality of musicality that is expressed through choreography and skating skills - a quality that is learned. It's not so organic as natural musicality, but does merit positive PCS a lot of the time.

    I'll add that I just rewatched Dai's 2010 World title winning La Strada. I was surprised to see how much his jumps and spins have improved since then. I thought it a great program at the time, but now it seems to be two brilliant footwork sequences set in an otherwise rather mediocre program.

    Dai's come far since then. That program would not have earned him silver at this year's Worlds IMO.
    Last edited by Japanfan; 04-12-2012 at 10:50 PM.

  3. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    To be perfectly honest I have no idea about the process of how you become an international judge because I am not at that level. And I don't think I am going to give you the answer you want. How do you quantify it. Because how people see music and the interpretation is a subjective thing. Two different judges may see things totally differently. But at the end of the day the reason why both judges made the decision they have is explainable and relevant.

    It is like the question "How do you define music?" I have watched a couple of documentaries where even world renowned musicians say you cannot define music. Because it is so based on the emotional reaction to it.

    Just as skaters have strengths and weaknesses, so are some judges more comfortable with certain aspects of the components and technical. For me the music is my strength and the area I need to work on is identifying transitions.

    The one thing you have to do when judging is justify your decisions. At Nationals for myself I write like crazy between skaters because if I get asked a round table discussion why I gave a particular mark or component I have to explain it.
    Actually to define music (just as to define good art) is not as hard as most think. There are skills, education, tools, tests, benchmarks, qualification available to train, develop to differentiate good musicality and interpretations. Take even the basic syllabus of the Yamaha music course for kids, one can learn to heighten and develop their musical intuition, interpretation, improvisation, develop skills and take exams for them. Or the judges can learn and watch alot of dancers in different styles, to be sensitive to the dancing movemment vocabulary and learn to easily identify the strength and weaknesses of each performer. Ideally these are the things all judges at world class level competition should able to do.

    The judges judge the competition, who's judging the judges?

    I definitely agree about appraise anything artistic, more literal explanation should be disclosed to the public beyond a 8.5/10... whatever that means. Problem is to develop these skills are likely to take great deal of time (maybe a life time's dedication) to learn and prove which I don't think you can find in a single judge that are equally knowledgeable about skating skills, various technicalities in skating, as well as good musicality and interpretation (except ice dancers and choreographers?), and expect more than 50 of them all have the same universal standard of excellence, and still be available to judging at world class ISU competitions all over the world.


    Quote Originally Posted by dinakt View Post
    With one caveat- this year's program's by Kostner, her last year's "Faune" LP and , to a degree, Patrick's "Aranjues" go a long way for me to find a new respect for Nichol. It seems she CAN do unusual choreo that is highly attuned to music, but only, as is a case with Carolina, when a skater wants to step out of the box to create smth. highly memorable. I was so happy Carolina was rewarded in PCS. Her SP was brilliant and avantgarde, and LP- a vision of musical understanding. But often if unusual choreo is not by the biggest name in choreography, it is not easily accepted.

    BTW, as a professional musician, I do not think musicality is so very subjective, personal preferences aside. It is just that it is hard to put in writing. If I could illustrate with jestures, or in musical notation, it would have been much easier.

    The reason I keep not finding time to to play by play is that it is tedious and would take forever to write: "55 seconds in, when violins do so and so, the hand jesture accentuates the first phrase and goes in syncopation in the next measure, while feet do a rhythm of whole note- quarter/ quarter... etc". But it is possible to verbalize, just very difficult; and if one is trained, one notices those things rather automatically. Professional musicians and dancers still disagree like cats and dogs ( any musical competition is a testament to that), but I don't think there would be quite so much of somewhat easy 'reputation consensus" .
    Lori is a brilliant choreographer who knows the system really well, and take in consideration the of range of suitability the skater she designs for. That is why her programs always ends up more about her smarts rather than the growth of the performer like Abbott's FS program this year, Wagner's Black Swan and of course Dai's most matured and seasoned work this year.

    IF and WHEN the system start to reward things for higher learning of artistic choreography, challenging and fully realized performance and programs, and start to award risks and unusual choreography based on skater's history and how far they surpass from previous, I'd bet she will come up something that will max out scores towards that direction. But for the moment, it doesn't. What is likely to work as proven in the past 2 years is a templated COP optimised format: back loaded with jumps, front loaded with time wasting spins and posing, doing something easy listening, find the easiest layout with the less risky content in order to max score for the skater in the interest of 'scoring' not the 'holistic' full realisation of the entire program and performance. What is the music concept of the program? Were the performer able to satisfactorily delivering that concept by the end of the performance?

    It became a game of smarts rather than sports (everyone on a level playing field, have equal chances to win). Minimum effort maximum result as long you have momentum on the side, since the correct impressions marks tends to catch up 1 or 2 competitions later anyway. It is a nature and the weakness of human judging, the latency effect of cognitive processing and reaction and often over reaction and compensation that result a weird bio rhythm all its own. From what I can see, the current judging 'culture' are almost entirely based on what is safe, tried and tested bench marking, means it is unable to cope with measure things that are unquantifiable such as improvement in choreography from one competition to the next, upgraded content from the last, better performance than the last are all criteria that deserve greater merit as long as musicality, choreography, costume, makeup, creative themes are part of the sport that requires rhythm and interpretation.

    I agree about Professional musicians and dancers still disagree like cats and dogs that is why at the highest level or art judging, you have a chair person that has the final say with a small panelist of highest quality of judging, and only those opinion counts and are accountable for their opinions. It is likely whatever conclusion they reach will be controversial, but at least the spectators will understand why instead of rioting and booing at medal ceremony, which is entirely unfair to the skaters involved.

    I would be curious given so much negative reaction to Patrick's WC win this year based entirely on PCS, will his PCS drop slightly at next competition or perhaps a loud thud if he ends up having multiple falls vs a clean Dai or someone else with upgraded content?
    Last edited by os168; 04-12-2012 at 01:57 PM.

  4. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    But did Dai get the outpour complaint like Chan did? Nope. Those people who complained about Chan didn't get a fall call turned a blind eye when it happened to their favorite. Hypocrite much?
    People didn't complain about Takahashi because they were smart enough to realize that the judges didn't call his fall in order to justify their decision not to call Chan's fall at 4CC. If they judges had called Takahashi's fall, they would have been accused for blatant double-standard. They did't call Takahashi's fall not for him, but to save their own asses.

  5. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    The judges judge the competition, who's judging the judges?
    I do know internationally the judges get assessed after every competition and will get letters about their performance. There is a review panel of officials who look at what marks they have given and they have round table discussions after the events.
    Last edited by Aussie Willy; 04-13-2012 at 03:28 AM.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    you are contradicting yourself. The system should change. Why? Because Chan's winning too much? So the system should change so others could win? Isn't that the same as changing the system so to make sure Chan can't win?

    And what should the changes be? Even with some changes, the disadvantage may not fall to Chan but other skaters, so be careful what you wish for.
    There's nothing wrong with my post. Making several big mistakes breaks the flow of the program and therefore should reduce PCS. You should know this.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko View Post
    People didn't complain about Takahashi because they were smart enough to realize that the judges didn't call his fall in order to justify their decision not to call Chan's fall at 4CC. If they judges had called Takahashi's fall, they would have been accused for blatant double-standard. They did't call Takahashi's fall not for him, but to save their own asses.
    Come on, be real. They don't complain because it's Dai. Only Chan's score will be scrutinized. There's no double-standard from the judges, but from the Dai fans.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by DELTA View Post
    Making several big mistakes breaks the flow of the program and therefore should reduce PCS.
    How did you know his PCS was not already reduced?

    1. All 5 of Chan's components dropped compared to Worlds 2011, most probably due to the fall.

    2. He really only had 1 rather disruptive mistake which affected the flow of the program, and he got right back up (as opposed to the way Asada fell on her waxel in 2008)

    3. Compared to 4CCs earlier in the season, the PCS gap between Chan and Takahashi narrowed from 5.3 to 4.36.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    How did you know his PCS was not already reduced?



    2. He really only had 1 rather disruptive mistake which affected the flow of the program, and he got right back up (as opposed to the way Asada fell on her waxel in 2008)
    It may not have been as severe as Asada's but his butt slid on the ice for several seconds and he did one and a half revolutions before getting upright. It was not one of those "bounce right back up" kind of falls, and it happened near the end of the program which leaves a poor impression.

  10. #230
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    Perhaps the judges are trained enough not to let an error at the end of the program overwhelm their impression and judgement of the entire program.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Perhaps the judges are trained enough not to let an error at the end of the program overwhelm their impression and judgement of the entire program.
    Perhaps not, but when you couple that with him being so off with the choreography, the whole ending of the program just didn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Perhaps not, but when you couple that with him being so off with the choreography, the whole ending of the program just didn't work.
    being off with choreography??? HUH!!! He may have been a bit behind but it sure didn't hinder the program like you are saying. Have you even watched the video?
    Crazy about sports!

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    being off with choreography??? HUH!!! He may have been a bit behind but it sure didn't hinder the program like you are saying. Have you even watched the video?
    Of course I watched, and "a bit behind" = off.

  14. #234
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    Guess bitter pill's not working?

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    Isn't this supposed to be about what "Takahashi needs to do," not what Chan did/ does, or what the judges do/ did.

  16. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Isn't this supposed to be about what "Takahashi needs to do," not what Chan did/ does, or what the judges do/ did.
    Exactly.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  17. #237
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    Since we're off track anyway

    Whatever he does to up those scores, I hope he continues to programs and like these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjAaX...feature=relmfu

    Sublime. I hope he sticks with the Wilson, Carmelengo, and Miyamoto trio for choreography next season.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fozzie Bear View Post
    Whatever he does to up those scores, I hope he continues to programs and like these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjAaX...feature=relmfu

    Sublime. I hope he sticks with the Wilson, Carmelengo, and Miyamoto trio for choreography next season.
    I agree. stunning.

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  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Isn't this supposed to be about what "Takahashi needs to do," not what Chan did/ does, or what the judges do/ did.
    Because it's Chan that's on the way. It's the judges giving out wrong marks. It's the system that's NOT working. Dai is perfect. Therefore, the judges need to be changed. The system needs to be changed Things just need to change so Dai can win.

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