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  1. #61
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    Just want to give some specifics on Dai's program and then later compare to Usova Zhulin in 1993. Yes, different discipline, but many of the interpretation criteria are similar. I'll also highlight some pieces from Chan

    Here's a link to Dai in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI
    Usova/Zhulin 1993
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxseLaxl61s
    Chan in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4


    I love Dai; he's charismatic and invests himself emotionally. But you have to pull that out of the analysis because those intangibles only count for so much in the PE IN and CH marks. So many other things matter.

    His two main shortfalls are (compared to Chan)
    1. The number of opportunities missed to interpret the music in a meaningful way and
    2. The lack of variety in his movement and ways to interpret the music.

    As for #1, there are places in the program where he doesn't really acknowledge the music.

    The first main part is through first 3 elements (0-1:20)
    -other than first 15 sec of program not many body movements connected to the music. Three turns after quad count for transitions but don't connect to music. Almost none of the notes acknowledged although some good transitional moves

    Musical transition (2:53 - 4:00)
    -Intensity picks up in the music with more furtive string instrument work. Dai's energy does not similarly amp up and there is very little movement that connects to the music. He does move his arms around but not in relation to the music. This is the best example here of missed opportunities to highlight the music. Arm movements, simpler connecting footwork and head bops. All very good but not worthy of 9s

    Compare that section specifically...2:53 to about 3:10 to Usova/Zhulin 6:10 to 6:40. Same cut of music. U/Z hit the notes and varied their body movement. More importantly their energy and speed surged with the music whereas Dai kept to one level of energy and kept the choreo to simple arm movements. Doesn't compare. Note that just before this section he stripped out a number of transitional moves he had earlier in the year at the J.O.

    As for #2, watching the program again with a more critical eye, I've now become even more aware of the lack of variety in his movement compared to Patrick. I now find that Dai's program is again simple arm movements and simpler footwork movements and sporadic edge work. And, outside of footwork everything he does is completely upright. Comparatively easy.

    With Patrick I see something different. Already in the first 20 seconds he uses almost every edge and rocks on them to the music. His body goes from high to low which you never see from Dai. Impacts choreo and IN part depending on how judges see it.
    -Also unlike Dai Patrick is up and down in his knees to the music even going into his hard early jumps, something Dai never does.
    -3A lands on a musical transition. Harder to do and gets more credit.

    Patrick has a much more well developed vocabulary in edges and turns. He highlights almost all of the notes and with an incredible variety of movement that incorporates his entire body. Lots of hops, directional changes and varied arm movements that are sharp or fluid all relative to what the music dictates.

    I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

    Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.

  2. #62

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    Rock2 - that is an excellent analysis.

    I was actually thinking about downloading the clips of both Dai and Chan and then doing a written analysis over the top of the program, to show where they are hitting the marks with the music or doing set ups.

    It is not only important to do these kinds of things for helping spectators understand how a program is judged, but can also be used as a judging training tool.

    Like I have said it is about percentages which is how you are meant to look at the components. What percentage of the program did they actually interpret? When it comes down to it I think the judges at the event probably did their jobs because they looked at the percentages.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  3. #63
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    Jump discussion aside, Takahashi really needs to improve his spins.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittyjake5 View Post
    Is there room for one more.
    For you, of course.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post
    Just want to give some specifics on Dai's program and then later compare to Usova Zhulin in 1993. Yes, different discipline, but many of the interpretation criteria are similar. I'll also highlight some pieces from Chan

    Here's a link to Dai in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI
    Usova/Zhulin 1993
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxseLaxl61s
    Chan in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4


    I love Dai; he's charismatic and invests himself emotionally. But you have to pull that out of the analysis because those intangibles only count for so much in the PE IN and CH marks. So many other things matter.

    His two main shortfalls are (compared to Chan)
    1. The number of opportunities missed to interpret the music in a meaningful way and
    2. The lack of variety in his movement and ways to interpret the music.

    As for #1, there are places in the program where he doesn't really acknowledge the music.

    The first main part is through first 3 elements (0-1:20)
    -other than first 15 sec of program not many body movements connected to the music. Three turns after quad count for transitions but don't connect to music. Almost none of the notes acknowledged although some good transitional moves

    Musical transition (2:53 - 4:00)
    -Intensity picks up in the music with more furtive string instrument work. Dai's energy does not similarly amp up and there is very little movement that connects to the music. He does move his arms around but not in relation to the music. This is the best example here of missed opportunities to highlight the music. Arm movements, simpler connecting footwork and head bops. All very good but not worthy of 9s

    Compare that section specifically...2:53 to about 3:10 to Usova/Zhulin 6:10 to 6:40. Same cut of music. U/Z hit the notes and varied their body movement. More importantly their energy and speed surged with the music whereas Dai kept to one level of energy and kept the choreo to simple arm movements. Doesn't compare. Note that just before this section he stripped out a number of transitional moves he had earlier in the year at the J.O.

    As for #2, watching the program again with a more critical eye, I've now become even more aware of the lack of variety in his movement compared to Patrick. I now find that Dai's program is again simple arm movements and simpler footwork movements and sporadic edge work. And, outside of footwork everything he does is completely upright. Comparatively easy.

    With Patrick I see something different. Already in the first 20 seconds he uses almost every edge and rocks on them to the music. His body goes from high to low which you never see from Dai. Impacts choreo and IN part depending on how judges see it.
    -Also unlike Dai Patrick is up and down in his knees to the music even going into his hard early jumps, something Dai never does.
    -3A lands on a musical transition. Harder to do and gets more credit.

    Patrick has a much more well developed vocabulary in edges and turns. He highlights almost all of the notes and with an incredible variety of movement that incorporates his entire body. Lots of hops, directional changes and varied arm movements that are sharp or fluid all relative to what the music dictates.

    I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

    Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.
    I remember observing this at Skate Canada this year only I didn't know how to express it in such detail....cudos to you for this post. Patrick uses his whole body to express the music.
    Addicted to FSU

  6. #66
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    Dai is a magnificent show skater and would have done fine in 6.0 but I dont think he would have beaten Patrick in 6.0 years either.

    Patrick's skating just blows you away. Even his ex program which is simpler and less chock full of goodies than his COP programs catch every nuance of the music.

    No doubt though that Dai is a pleasure to watch but will he be able to catch Patrick's edge work which has been honed over years of hard work under Mr Colson ... I doubt very much.

    Rock 2 really enjoyed and agreed with your analysis. Seeing the programs side by side tells the tale better than any statement.

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    It is really nice to see someone set emotion and fandom aside and do an analysis like that. Thank you, Rock, we should see this more often.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post
    Whole post
    THANK YOU so much for the analysis Rock2, I'd rep you so hard if I could!

    It's great to see tangible analysis on why Chan is above and beyond other skaters unlike some naysayer's repeat comments on him being robotic or soulless.

    Of course there will still be people that will also say if you need such a long explanation on why one is better than the other then figure skating will lose the popularity. This is too bad because Figure Skating is still a sport and like all other sports it needs to expand and grow by achieving human mastery. It's not just about the jumps, under CoP I feel on average skating skills and program composition barring the ugly catchfoots, are much demanding than in the 6.0s days. As a fan it is also more interesting to watch.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Excuse me while I vomit.
    Hope you get better.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Jump discussion aside, Takahashi really needs to improve his spins.
    I would agree here. Dai's spins are competent (they get the levels) but I would score most of them at a 0 GOE. If he could get better GOE on the spins it would definitely help his TES.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlen View Post
    The thing is figure skating is still old school and judges still want to see same old same old programs done to death by skaters. If skater try to push the boundary, they are no properly rewarded as they should. Only real weakness Dai has is not having consistent quad. But given his past injury and his age, you got give him a break.
    Well, Chan's programs are certainly not same old same old. And he IS PUSHING not only himself, but all other skaters.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    How is that even possible? Do you want the ISU to add a level 5 for step sequences?

    You're extreme even for an uber, so I won't dignify the rest of it with a response. Past a certain point any attempt at a discussion becomes ridiculous.
    I am just stating what I think, same as others who think Dai should just wear a Chan mask or change his name or other nonsense.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubletoe View Post
    Only a clean Takahashi with the same technical content as Chan can beat Chan, who typically makes a mistake or two.
    Not necessary true. Chan made more mistakes early on in the season, but not late of the season. He was perfect at National on both SP and LP. He had one mistake at 4CC. I think his fall on the 2A at World was an odd case. It's not like he jumped and fell on the landing. It's more like his blade caught something before taking off. Dai made MORE mistakes than him at his National and 4CC.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post
    Just want to give some specifics on Dai's program and then later compare to Usova Zhulin in 1993. Yes, different discipline, but many of the interpretation criteria are similar. I'll also highlight some pieces from Chan

    Here's a link to Dai in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI
    Usova/Zhulin 1993
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxseLaxl61s
    Chan in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4


    I love Dai; he's charismatic and invests himself emotionally. But you have to pull that out of the analysis because those intangibles only count for so much in the PE IN and CH marks. So many other things matter.

    His two main shortfalls are (compared to Chan)
    1. The number of opportunities missed to interpret the music in a meaningful way and
    2. The lack of variety in his movement and ways to interpret the music.

    As for #1, there are places in the program where he doesn't really acknowledge the music.

    The first main part is through first 3 elements (0-1:20)
    -other than first 15 sec of program not many body movements connected to the music. Three turns after quad count for transitions but don't connect to music. Almost none of the notes acknowledged although some good transitional moves

    Musical transition (2:53 - 4:00)
    -Intensity picks up in the music with more furtive string instrument work. Dai's energy does not similarly amp up and there is very little movement that connects to the music. He does move his arms around but not in relation to the music. This is the best example here of missed opportunities to highlight the music. Arm movements, simpler connecting footwork and head bops. All very good but not worthy of 9s

    Compare that section specifically...2:53 to about 3:10 to Usova/Zhulin 6:10 to 6:40. Same cut of music. U/Z hit the notes and varied their body movement. More importantly their energy and speed surged with the music whereas Dai kept to one level of energy and kept the choreo to simple arm movements. Doesn't compare. Note that just before this section he stripped out a number of transitional moves he had earlier in the year at the J.O.

    As for #2, watching the program again with a more critical eye, I've now become even more aware of the lack of variety in his movement compared to Patrick. I now find that Dai's program is again simple arm movements and simpler footwork movements and sporadic edge work. And, outside of footwork everything he does is completely upright. Comparatively easy.

    With Patrick I see something different. Already in the first 20 seconds he uses almost every edge and rocks on them to the music. His body goes from high to low which you never see from Dai. Impacts choreo and IN part depending on how judges see it.
    -Also unlike Dai Patrick is up and down in his knees to the music even going into his hard early jumps, something Dai never does.
    -3A lands on a musical transition. Harder to do and gets more credit.

    Patrick has a much more well developed vocabulary in edges and turns. He highlights almost all of the notes and with an incredible variety of movement that incorporates his entire body. Lots of hops, directional changes and varied arm movements that are sharp or fluid all relative to what the music dictates.

    I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

    Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.
    Bravo!!!

    But Dai fans will refuse to see it because they are too busy vomiting after reading my earlier post

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post
    I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

    Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.
    Interesting analysis, Rock 2. Thank you.

    I too would like to hear what others see that I'm missing. Could someone who think's Dai wuzrobbed give an equally detailed explanation as to why?

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Your definition of interpretation does not seem to align with that of the ISU:
    • Effortless movement in time to the music (timing)
    • Expression of the music’s style, character and rhythm
    • Use of finesse to reflect the nuances of the music

    Perhaps you can explain how a skater who is behind the music can possibly be doing any of those things?
    Patrick wasn't behind the music for the whole program, just at the very end. And the judges may have in fact given him a lower score for IN than they would have without the timing issue. Given how high he generally scores for IN and how well he meets the criteria, it would not represent a serious reduction in marks.


    .

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Patrick wasn't behind the music for the whole program, just at the very end. And the judges may have in fact given him a lower score for IN than they would have without the timing issue. Given how high he generally scores for IN and how well he meets the criteria, it would not represent a serious reduction in marks.
    I was responding to a poster who suggested that IN is not just about being in tune with the music. I think the ISU criteria shows that IN is exactly about that, and if a skater is behind the music, even for part of the program, than the IN score should be impacted in a noticeable way.

    I tend to disagree with Chan's IN scores in general, but that's irrelevant to my previous post, which was specifically about what the IN component measures. It's also irrelevant to this thread, so I'd prefer not to continue with this subject.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Patrick wasn't behind the music for the whole program, just at the very end. And the judges may have in fact given him a lower score for IN than they would have without the timing issue. Given how high he generally scores for IN and how well he meets the criteria, it would not represent a serious reduction in marks.

    .
    I just rewatched the program and took note of the end of the program. Something that concerns me with skaters is when they take their music to absolute time limit. I would much rather they give themselves a couple of seconds that if they do run over then they won't incur the time deduction.

    I don't think the fall on the axel impacted on the IN. I wouldn't have even known that he was playing catch up or wasn't with the music until the very end when he finished afterwards.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    heaven.
    It would be awesome to watch... so Epsiode 1 - The Phantom Menace has already began. Will we start to experience the Attack of the Patrick clones? Or will we be seeing the Revenge of the Seethe [aka skating forum eyeballs]? Personally I am leaning on A New Hope in Hanyu who will hopefully lead the Empire Strike Back until finally we have Return of the Jedi to defend the figure skating universe again, maybe Plushy or Evan or Lambiel?
    You must be a Star Wars fan. I have one at home.
    Seriously, Dai is a brilliant skater and is already up there among the handful few. I love his skating. It just so happen that there are a handful of wonderful skaters now and the coming years. If he can add a couple of quads, he will add more points to his skates.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Rock2 - that is an excellent analysis.

    I was actually thinking about downloading the clips of both Dai and Chan and then doing a written analysis over the top of the program, to show where they are hitting the marks with the music or doing set ups.

    It is not only important to do these kinds of things for helping spectators understand how a program is judged, but can also be used as a judging training tool.
    Oh yes, can you please Aussie Willy? I am a non-skater and I find this type of analysis useful in helping me to understand the sport. I always love knowledgeable comments in sports.
    Last edited by spikydurian; 04-04-2012 at 01:36 PM.

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