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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Wow, (Fake) London really sounds like the place to be next year in March.
    The trial was in London - the murder wasn't there
    Can't skate but love to watch

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorskid View Post
    Unfortunately, it seems that some folks cannot accept the death of "good ole 6.0" and move on. There is so much energy spent on longing for the return of the "good ole days", making comparisons (good & bad), etc.

    It would be better to accept that those days are gone and perhaps try to participate in improving the present system as we look to the future of the sport.
    Again, this issue is not about clinging desperately to 6.0, it's about still having the same frustrating problems as 6.0 (the artistic score). Since we still have this problem, I think many feel that the complex math is really unnecessary, since there's STILL a way to prop up your favorite.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorskid View Post
    You might be interested in reading this post-Worlds blog entry from PJKwong: http://pjkwong.com/?p=1160
    Interesting, but what is the audience supposed to do when they don't like the marks? This isn't the first time; IIRC, there was an incident where an audience booed marks given to a skater while Dorothy Hamill was coming onto the ice (and thought the audience was booing her).

    Maybe, having two medals ... "judges choice" and "audience choice" would help ... it would focus the audience attention on the performances that they did like, instead of the marks that they didn't like.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan View Post
    Interesting, but what is the audience supposed to do when they don't like the marks? This isn't the first time; IIRC, there was an incident where an audience booed marks given to a skater while Dorothy Hamill was coming onto the ice (and thought the audience was booing her).

    Maybe, having two medals ... "judges choice" and "audience choice" would help ... it would focus the audience attention on the performances that they did like, instead of the marks that they didn't like.
    Actually, I was more interested in the other part of PJ's blog...
    Can't skate but love to watch

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Again, this issue is not about clinging desperately to 6.0, it's about still having the same frustrating problems as 6.0 (the artistic score). Since we still have this problem, I think many feel that the complex math is really unnecessary, since there's STILL a way to prop up your favorite.
    Well, there's more going on than propping up favorites. If we accept the fact that no system is going to get rid of that possibility completely, then the question is what's the best way (fairest and most transparent to the skaters) to address the non-favoritism aspects of the judging?

    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan View Post
    Maybe, having two medals ... "judges choice" and "audience choice" would help ... it would focus the audience attention on the performances that they did like, instead of the marks that they didn't like.
    That could be fun. How could it be instituted?

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    I don't know if it's bad or good, but I do think "the skate of the night" should be properly awarded. Even the so-called "audience-friendly" programs. After all, figure skating is a sport where audience plays a significant role and whether a skater/team has the ability to please the spectators should also be a factor in the score. Audiences are not full of idiots, they can appreciate more sophisticated programs, if only they have the spark.

    The thing is, figure skating is a sport, not a TV show. It would be fine to judge based on audience-friendliness when it's a show that incorporates audience popularity.

    We can't have the figure skating judges giving out points because they like the music or because of the intensity of the audience response. That undermines everything the skaters worked for all season, besides being patently unfair.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorskid View Post
    You might be interested in reading this post-Worlds blog entry from PJKwong: http://pjkwong.com/?p=1160
    She seems sure that the audience was booing Chan specifically, not the judges, but how could she know? I haven't watched the men's LP yet, so I haven't seen the booing, but I am having a tough time reconciling the booing of Chan, which is causing many folks to criticize the audience (they ought to be ashamed, etc.), with the audience's behavior during Alissa FS, which seemed incredibly supportive and encouraging. It was the same audience, right?
    Creating drama!

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    I think PJ meant she wanted to make sure that it was in reaction to the outcome and Chan being in first VS something different off camera that could have led to the boos.

    As far as the audience booing the judges goes - I DO understand the desire to want to boo judges' results you don't agree with.

    However, in this case the booing and whistling continued for a very long time - throughout the interview with Patrick Chan and into the medal ceremony.

    Wanting to make a point you don't agree with the judging is one thing - but continuing through all of that definitely comes across as booing the competitor for something over which he has no control.

    As far as what he did "wrong" -- he made a couple of errors including a fall - but the audience didn't boo the many many others who did that. So basically the come across as booing the skater for where the judges placed him.

    I agree with PJ - it is shameful. And I think people like Aunt Joyce or posters here who support that behaviour from the audience are even more shameful.

  9. #89
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    "Skaters aren’t making the same cash that they were able to back in the day because through the internet: their likeness, their skating and their lives are very much more accessible which diminishes the value of being able to see them live"

    Can PJ please check Yu Na Kim's bank account? The internet has exploded everywhere, and it can be a complimentary mean to increase and solidify your fan base.
    PJ is obviously being defensive about Chan, but a lot of her arguments are very weak.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    ...

    That could be fun. How could it be instituted?
    There was once a cheesefest in the US where the live audience had devices that let them "vote"; TV watchers phoned in their votes. IMO, a similar scheme could be used in events. The "audience voting" would take place for a fixed period of time after the FS in each discipline; devices would be used for the "live audience; email and phone for those watching live -- be it on line or on TV. If TV isn't showing the event live, the TV audience can't vote.

    By separating out the "audience choice" from the "judges choice", the judges can still use the criteria outlined in the CoP. Also, I think that the information gained from such a system may suggest some "tweaks" in the CoP.

  11. #91

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    This is a SPORT people not a reality show where the peeps watching get to vote for their favourites. Really, would suggestions of having two layers of medals -- one from the judges and one from the audience -- be suggested for other sports where human beings give scores. Sports like diving (single & synchro), gymnastics (either kind), moguls etc. etc. etc.

    Ohhhhh and maybe we should extend that to any sport where humans have to use their judgment on calls -- like hockey for instance. I can tell you there are many a time when a ref made a call based upon what he heard -- crashing into the boards and then seeing someone on the ice curled up like they died. The ref didn't see the play but makes the call based upon the fact someone is on the ice. Well guess what really happened -- said player made a run for a player on the other team, missed the player and crashed into the boards. Ref misses all that and give the "offending" team a penalty. He got it wrong so should he be overturned by the fans? Can you imagine how long a game would take?

    Seriously, wanting to have separate medals based upon how much an audience likes programs versus what a trained person marks is, in my opinion, ludicrious and insane. How would you go about determing who is 1st, 2nd, 3rd -- by a meter that measures the amount of noise generated by the audience? Seriously, how would something like this get done? Like I said in another post, what "moves" one fan may not do the same to another. In this case, who is "right"?

    Still shaking my head at the actions of some of those "fans" who continued booing at Patrick even through his interview. It's just childish & immature and not what I would expect from fans who are supposedly so knowledgeable about figure skating.

    As for Rosie -- any chance she would be retiring sometime soo? One can only hope, I guess.
    Crazy about sports!

  12. #92
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    I think that there was more than one reason for the booing. I think it was a combination of the French crowd wanting Joubert on the podium (understandable) and some preferring Daisake to Patrick. Whatever the case , the look on Patrick's face during the medal ceremony was painful. I'm so glad his gala skate was so good and well received.

    I've read in some threads that the Japanese fans were nailed for the booing. I don't see this! I read accounts from those who were there and they said that Japanese fans were disappointed, puzzled and awkward with the booing around them. That is completely in line with what I saw in crowd videos. I hate this full-scale trashing of a culture. Really don't want to see this in London next year.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by maggylyn View Post
    We can't have the figure skating judges giving out points because they like the music or because of the intensity of the audience response.
    Because they like the music- of course not, because of the intensity of the audience response - why not? Not everyone has the charisma and ability to charm the audience and it should be awarded if they do. Isn't it what the IT and PE components should be all about? I'm not saying give the gold to the program which the audience liked the most even if it's technically weak, but I just cannot take the situation where a winning program is more sloppy AND less appreciated by the audience. That I can't say yes to.

    This kind of ability to entertain the audience used to be awarded under 6.0 and despite all its flaws, at least it gave us champions who were also the crowd's heroes, the true skating gods, like Yagudin, Plushenko, Kwan. Again, I'm not saying it should be the decisive factor, but IMO it should at least play a role in the PCS.

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan View Post
    There was once a cheesefest in the US where the live audience had devices that let them "vote"; TV watchers phoned in their votes. IMO, a similar scheme could be used in events. The "audience voting" would take place for a fixed period of time after the FS in each discipline; devices would be used for the "live audience; email and phone for those watching live -- be it on line or on TV. If TV isn't showing the event live, the TV audience can't vote.
    Wherever in the world it's held, it won't be live on TV everywhere there are fans who would like to vote. Maybe live online, but sometimes in the middle of the night for a large fan base.

    By separating out the "audience choice" from the "judges choice", the judges can still use the criteria outlined in the CoP. Also, I think that the information gained from such a system may suggest some "tweaks" in the CoP.
    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    This is a SPORT people not a reality show where the peeps watching get to vote for their favourites. Really, would suggestions of having two layers of medals -- one from the judges and one from the audience -- be suggested for other sports where human beings give scores.
    I was thinking that this would just be something to make the fans feel involved by expressing their opinions and the skaters who win fan medals to feel appreciated by the fans. They would have no input into the official results of the event, nor should they.

    It's going to be a popularity contest, plain and simple, skewed as much by which nationality of fans gets to vote live as by the quality of the performances. I don't foresee any reason for the ISU to tweak the official judging rules to reflect the biases of the fans.

  15. #95
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    I read PJ's blog after I posted. Kudos to her!

    As for Rosie, don't waste your time writing to the Toronto Star about her. The Star has no interest in figure skating. Every page of the sports section is filled with minutiae re hockey, football and soccer. I tried to cut her some slack because she has been covering 3 or 4 really gruesome murder events. But then I realized that she has been relentlessly, terminally negative for years. Give me a terminally positive PJ any day. I wish she'd write for the Star.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    ...whole post...


    I couldn't rep you without spreading it around some more
    Can't skate but love to watch

  17. #97

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    Fixing four things in COP would make it a lot more audience-friendly:
    1. Revalue the jumps: devalue the doubles, and get rid of points associated with fully rotated falls. Fall = 0 points solves a lot of problems, and would probably discourage skaters from attempting jumps they really can't control. In conjunction with the Zayak rule, devaluing doubles makes it less likely that mediocre jumpers medal.
    2. Require that step sequences meet one of the original patterns, and add value for speed, power and musicality: Straight, circular, or serpentine, and move away from the wandering in the wilderness, slow, dreary sequences that suck the energy out of too many routines.
    3. Eliminate blade grabs as a feature. Anywhere. You're still free to grab your blade, but not because it gives you more points.
    4. Break up the judging panel into two: half judge on Technical score, and half on Component scores. Those assigned to judge on component scores would rather quickly start differentiating between component scores, and we might actually see skaters getting a more reasonable mix that reflects the skating.

    You'd end up with a skating competition that is a lot more audience-friendly, and a system that keeps many of the good points of COP while jettisoning some of the worst.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Fixing four things in COP would make it a lot more audience-friendly:
    1. Revalue the jumps: devalue the doubles, and get rid of points associated with fully rotated falls. Fall = 0 points solves a lot of problems, and would probably discourage skaters from attempting jumps they really can't control.
    Woo! No more quads!

  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Woo! No more quads!
    We had plenty of quads under 6.0. And we had a lot fewer folks falling their way onto the podium.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Fixing four things in COP would make it a lot more audience-friendly:

    4. Break up the judging panel into two: half judge on Technical score, and half on Component scores. Those assigned to judge on component scores would rather quickly start differentiating between component scores, and we might actually see skaters getting a more reasonable mix that reflects the skating.
    totally agree! i wish they would do this.

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