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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    The judging system does not reward the "audience-friendly program" or the "skate of the night" and journalists who claim to know the sport should know better than to think so. COP was an attempt to introduce more objectivity into judging, and while it's far from perfect, it is nonetheless more fair than 6.0, IMO.

    I feel badly for skaters who work very hard to construct and execute their programs according to the rules in place, then get slammed because another skater executes their program particularly well and captures the audience's support, but does not fulfill the technical criteria to score as many marks.

    What kind of judging system are we to create? One that allows the audience to vote, based upon their emotional reaction? That is not viable. If there is to be any fairness for the skaters, marks must be based on specific criteria.
    Right on!

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerek View Post
    I agree with you, but then again, you don't see the individual point values for other multi-element judged events such as gymnastics, half-pipe snowboard etc. displaying all their individual element marks on the screen
    We do usually know what the base value of a gymnast or snowboarders intended element is.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbkenn View Post
    Most Canadians knowledgeable with figure skating know she has a reputation for being an idiot and don't pay attention to what she says anyway.
    Most Canadians know she is an idiot no matter what she writes about. If she can't be bothered to at least learn the basics of CoP, then she should quit bitching about how "difficult" it is to understand.

    I agree that TV coverage could do a much better job of explaining base values, GOEs, etc., but Ms. DiManno is not writing about TV coverage.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  4. #44
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    Did Chan not do 2 quads one in combination and the triple axle. He won it right there. He would have won in the old system too. The french don't know their skating if they don't recognize that. Even I knew he had won when he stepped off the ice and I'm not the most technical person with this new system.

    The guys are going to have to being putting 2 quads in their programs to compete.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    Did Chan not do 2 quads one in combination and the triple axle. He won it right there. He would have won in the old system too. The french don't know their skating if they don't recognize that. Even I knew he had won when he stepped off the ice and I'm not the most technical person with this new system.

    The guys are going to have to being putting 2 quads in their programs to compete.
    I don't think the boos have only to do with the technical content..yes there was a splat on the waxel and general audiences tend to overreact to falls, but the French audience really did not enjoy Chan's performance. He is a genius of the blade but he is so robotic and soulless that the audience does not get the PCS marks. Daisuke is the type of artists French crowds love to see. It was such a contrast between the two. There is a huge problem with the way PCS are given. Give 10 to Chan in skating skills, but make him work harder for the other marks.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by kirkbiggestfan View Post
    I don't think the boos have only to do with the technical content..yes there was a splat on the waxel and general audiences tend to overreact to falls, but the French audience really did not enjoy Chan's performance. He is a genius of the blade but he is so robotic and soulless that the audience does not get the PCS marks. Daisuke is the type of artists French crowds love to see. It was such a contrast between the two. There is a huge problem with the way PCS are given. Give 10 to Chan in skating skills, but make him work harder for the other marks.
    So Daisuke is the Jerry Lewis of figure skating?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    The thing that gets me is all the people complaining that the audience doesn't get COP - and insinuating that it was somehow clearer for the audience under 6.0.

    Maybe 5.7 out of 6.0 was easier for the average audience member to comprehend than the numbers are now - but the reasoning for placements was certainly not clearer to the average audience.

    I may not always agree with the judging now - but at least if you want to take the time - you can see how the marking breaks down.
    I always love a discussion about COP ^^^ Yes, yes and yes. On a simplistic level, an audience member could see that a 6.0 was deemed "perfect" in that judge's perspective and a 5.9 "almost perfect." But what that actually meant in terms of the skating, IMO, was never clear to the the average audience. It just was much easier for the audience to understand that a judge saw perfection, near perfection or whatever. What that meant quantitatively to anyone well...

    Figure skating is a sport first and what I believe COP brought to the table is that, most importantly, the technical scores are clearer to the athletes and the coaches. When looking at the technical scores, there is at least the potential for them to analyze them, understand why they received the marks they did, and work to improve. Under 6.0, it had to be more of a guessing game. I can just imagine a lot of times that athletes and coaches just threw up their hands because they couldn't be sure where they had "lost points" and concluding that it didn't matter how they skated because the judges would never give them the credit due.

    As for the PCS, however

  8. #48
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    Even less of a reason to boo .. really? I'm not even going to argue "robotic" which I don't agree with but skaters have to be appreciated for all different programs.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoa View Post
    If I were an elite skater, I'd want to know exactly and precisely where I lost my points, which the COP attempts to do. The 6.0 maybe used easier numbers, but for me, I don't think it's transformed the sport as much as the COP has so far. I'd love it if the system wasn't anonymous, but that's probably hoping for too much.

    If the audience comes to watch figure skating, I don't know if they'd stop going in droves just because they "don't get" the scores. Perhaps the progression of the COP system, the economic downturn, and the fluctuation in "star" competitors across all fields are factors to consider if looking at audience numbers.

    Agree with The According above in saying that simpler numbers don't mean that the audiences understand the results any better. I'm sure the same questions of "I don't get how XYZ won. ABC was clearly better and sparklier" rise in either scenario.

    I'm biased - I don't like ambiguity and want to know where I stand, which I think the jargon-laden COP provides. Welfare of skaters should come before that of the audience. I just don't think we need to dumb down or ease the system just for their convenience, which might not even be true.
    ^^^

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by yunasashafan View Post
    It bugs me to no end when people say they don't understand the cop because it's all complicated math. Really?? It's simple addition, not differential equations, for crying out loud.

    What can be complicated is figuring out the levels and the GOEs and the base values for each element. That was not easier under 6.0, in fact one could argue that the process to attain a "grade" for each element is much more transparent under COP (what did 5.7 mean, really?)

    What makes COP harder than 6.0, IMO, is that it is an aggregate system where, to understand the whole, you need to have a grasp on the parts to see how they add up. The 'math' is not the culprit. You just need to know more about the scoring to understand the meaning of the number.

    PS I am not trying to defend COP. I am just sick of all this "it's all complicated math" outcry
    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    The judging system does not reward the "audience-friendly program" or the "skate of the night" and journalists who claim to know the sport should know better than to think so. COP was an attempt to introduce more objectivity into judging, and while it's far from perfect, it is nonetheless more fair than 6.0, IMO.

    I feel badly for skaters who work very hard to construct and execute their programs according to the rules in place, then get slammed because another skater executes their program particularly well and captures the audience's support, but does not fulfill the technical criteria to score as many marks.

    What kind of judging system are we to create? One that allows the audience to vote, based upon their emotional reaction? That is not viable. If there is to be any fairness for the skaters, marks must be based on specific criteria.
    ^^^ and all of this

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by kirkbiggestfan View Post
    Give 10 to Chan in skating skills, but make him work harder for the other marks.
    I'd say that he works hard enough for the TR mark as well.

  12. #52

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    There was a media seminary at Worlds, maybe the journalist should have attended it. As for spectators loosing interest, I can say that the rink was full on Saturday and Sunday, less so on the working days, especially in the afternoon sessions. But overall the impression was positive and many fans from other countries had come although the tickets were certainly not cheap (and Nice is not a cheap place, too).

    Chan vs Takahashi - you can make a point for both. In my opinion, the difference in points should have been smaller. I would have preferred Takahashi and I think his PCSs should be higher, but I don't really have a problem with Chan winning.

  13. #53
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    The (French) people sitting around me in Nice were booing because Joubert didn't get a medal and no, they didn't understand why, because they had rarely been to see skating before and thought Patrick's fall would allow Brian in. It was pure nationalism! As a Brit with no national bias (I enjoy both skaters for their various strengths) I tried to explain, but they refused to listen.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    I'd say that he works hard enough for the TR mark as well.
    True, he has tons of very difficult transitions that are very well performed...but not necessarly to the beat of the music for example. The majority of the audience was probably not expert in choctaws or brackets, but they can feel a performance and the interpretation of a program. The main criticism is that he is too robotic. I'd rather see him do fewer transitions but more effective ones. In my opinion, Chan hasn't reached his choreographic potential yet. I really hope he starts working with choreographers that will push his artistic boundaries.

  15. #55
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    you didn't say thing regarding the brouhaha in 2002 == with pairs.
    now it effects you. you stated other people are unknowledgable and don't know anything about Cop --yet you don't take a step back and try for figure out why they stated it.

    why--your favorites win, and are placed high regardless.
    if that was the case why did mao only get 102 for a fall. she had decent pcs.
    why did alissa with 5 get a 75 she had a great skate if not for falls, it would look good.

    she deserved lower in my opinion regarding alissa.

    why judge ladies harsher than mens. outside of quad nothing different-in fact most men skate like ladies anyways.
    you want more money --have to judge all same-high/harsh level. not just one.

    why after moir complained stayed up on top despite little mistakes.
    i can go on and on.

    patrick skated okay-not well-but okay-9's for falls. yes he tried two quads--reward.
    or is something else into play-like bias, race, politics--

  16. #56

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    nm
    Last edited by falling_dance; 04-02-2012 at 06:36 PM.

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    Television does a terrible job of explaining even the concepts of CoP. PJ Kwong on CBC was at least trying to bring audience along by giving them a simplified technical score sheet to work from (forget about PCS, but was a good start).

    I hate how the marks are read out in the audience. Skater skates. And then a total score is read. 168.23. Bleh. no transparency. They show Tech and PCS but don't even read those out.

    When CoP first started the announcer read out each PCS score individually. Maybe that seemed too long but in years past they read out each judges two sets of scores in 6.0 so...

    I wish they read out the six scores (tech and each of 5 PCS) and flashed the ranking for each score...before reading total score and rank. And then leave that on the screen. So while the judging isn't perfect it helps the audience a bit if they say "ok so this guy got 1st in performance and 1st in interpretation but was 6th to 8th in everything else. Now I see where he lost it". It's a start. Once you get audience used to that you work down the road on helping the audience understand what each component is, etc.

    Needs work and more effort to educate.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eislauffan View Post
    There was a media seminary at Worlds, maybe the journalist should have attended it.
    No doubt. This has been said before and I will say it again, "Why is DiManno covering skating?". She is not a sports journalist. Last week, she was covering a murder trial in London Ontario.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by query5 View Post
    she had a great skate if not for falls, it would look good.
    That's like saying I would have won Worlds if not for my inability to make it out of regional qualifying
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  20. #60
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    The problem is not that the audience doesn't get CoP, it's that CoP values things the audience doesn't necessarily care about, while it doesn't value visible things in a program that a non-educated (skating wise) audience appreciates.

    I don't know if it's bad or good, but I do think "the skate of the night" should be properly awarded. Even the so-called "audience-friendly" programs. After all, figure skating is a sport where audience plays a significant role and whether a skater/team has the ability to please the spectators should also be a factor in the score. Audiences are not full of idiots, they can appreciate more sophisticated programs, if only they have the spark.

    Besides, the problem people have with Chan is that he can do 50% of what he planned and still win over his 100% clean rivals, just because his edges are deep or whatever. I mean, the fact that someone stumbles or falls a lot in one program really should be somehow reflected in the SS, don't you think?

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