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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinktwink View Post
    ITA with everything you've said here, great post!

    I'd also like to add that for me I find all the fuss about the performances even more because even if V/M had ended up scoring closer to D/W they still would have won the whole thing because they WON the SD. In all the fuss that seems to have been forgotten. They already had a point cushion so even if they had only scored a 107 they would be World Champions. They performed a few elements better and that's where the scores come from. D/W didn't max out their levels and its as simple as that, its a legitimate reason to not get extra marks. The way that some people have reacted to the scores and the result is as if its still the 6.0 scoring mentality. In any case V/M had a very good performance it just wasn't PERFECTION and according to the scores neither was D/W's.

    I haven't seen any of the PBP but did the same outcry happen after S/S's win in pairs? I mean come on now THAT was a close score
    YES to all this. How many times did D-W make mistakes this season, ACTUAL mistakes, that went unnoticed by the judges? Remember how both almost fell twice on the twizzles and still got level fours? Remember that 76 at the GPF when Meryl clearly missed an edge on the second (or first, I don't remember now) choctaw? I mean, no one seems to remember this now, do we? But, oh, enter Tessa and Scott, these novice, inexperienced, green skaters who have NEVER in their entire career won anything important, they win Worlds after a couple of little bobbles that honestly, were only visible to them and all hell break loose.

    Give me a break here. The fact that some people, even V-M fans, are dissecting this win as if it were incredible, it reminds me of Tanith and Andrea's reaction after D-W lost 4CC, as if it was inconceivable that the Grand Prix and World champions could lose to the Olympic and World Champions. This is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. This is a SPORT, not a popularity contest. If this sport were judged by the audience's reaction, P-B would have won gold, W-P would be second, and D-W would have won bronze. But thankfully, this is a sport and there are technical parameters that need to be met in order to WIN and no one met those parameters better than Tessa and Scott this season.

    I respect them even more for taking something as inconsequential as that piece of music and build a program; a nuanced, exquisite program out of THAT. Name one, just one figure skater who can take that music and do what these two did. I said it at the beginning and I'll say it again: Funny Face (the music) was not a safe choice, it's not the most thrilling music in the world, it lacks pace and it's not easy to get if you haven't watched the movie, it's not the best of the Gershwin era either. They didn't pick something that would make their job easier, they did not seek to please any audiences, they picked this because it was important to them, because there is a personal attachment to this particular film and music. To that I say kudos, guys. Kudos to you.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by m_chenning View Post
    Meryl Davis and Charlie White were perfect in their programme tonight and did everything as best as they could on 100%. Another words, they had clean skating .- said Igor Shpilband. But Tessa had some minor mistakes in transitions from one element to another .- added Marina Zueva. But we should bear in mind that she had 4 seasons with ill legs, both legs, so, you can't even imagine how difficult for her to skate all this time. And it's good that now they could feel the taste of the victory, something slightly forgotten for them.
    Does anyone know exactly what press question they were responding to? That may make a difference in the context.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvi5 View Post
    Does anyone know exactly what press question they were responding to? That may make a difference in the context.
    Ask Pani, I am sure she will be thrilled to make the context clearer for everyone instead of loosely paraphrasing whatever it is that Zueva said and adjust it to what she wanted Zueva to say. Oh wait!

    By the way, thanks for the translation, m_chenning! It doesn't surprise me that Shpilband said that.

    On a more relaxed note. Their lines and unison are even evident here: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1...rozeo2_250.gif.
    Last edited by Golightly; 04-05-2012 at 06:24 PM.

  4. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golightly View Post
    Ask Pani, I am sure she will be thrilled to make the context clearer for everyone instead of loosely paraphrasing whatever it is that Zueva said and adjust it to what she wanted Zueva to say. Oh wait!

    By the way, thanks for the translation, m_chenning! It doesn't surprise me that Shpilband said that.
    I post what they said - what a problem? If Z-Sh said this, why i couldnt post link?
    And i post, what she said, when girls siad to her congrats with T-S gold

  5. #205

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    I don't see the fuss. Look at Krylova. She is a sobbing mess at the end of w&P's fd but not at p&b's fd. Imagine if that occurred with Zoueva.

  6. #206
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    And now a standing ovation for Golightly! woohoo!
    my 2 cents on the whole matter (something i have thought about during the whole season).
    well, i guess everything started with Tessa's injury during 2011 season. had they competed with their rocking samba FD, DW would have not came out as the dominant couple for the whole season. of course their Tango was very good, technically superb, but if T&S were there too, people could have made comparisons with the samba program, in which their chemistry and hotness was just overwhelming. Something that you didn't feel in the Tango. interestingly, infact, both teams had a latin theme (well, ok, Tango is not latin, but you get me anyway ) Competition after competition, DW earned an huge reputation. And many felt that they deserved the gold in 2010 worlds, so they thought "Now it's time for the revenge" or something. Then, the poor Tessa had that painful accident at 4cc and they were able to show only a small part of their dance. People did not have the chance to appreciate the whole thing. This wasn't a good thing heading into Worlds. At that point, the balance in "reputation" was leaning toward DW, despite their SD wasn't something memorable (and no one seems to recall that program in the discussions). Ok, so DW were the first American to get the gold in ice dance. Which, naturally, impressed the US fans (and, who knows, probably consoled some of them for the iatus in the Ladiez ) Fact 2, DW tend to show off how hard and packed their programs are, and speed is a very appreciated quality nowadays. Maybe, it is considered better having speed, more than going with the music. Tessa and Scott, as we know well, make it look easy and effortless (and they respect the music in every single second). They're obviously very fast, but since speed is not what you notice immediately in their programs (you focus on their relations and artistry, etc), fans said "DW are faster", giving this meaning to it: "hence, better in technique". As paradox, an outstanding quality like "making it look easy", does not play in favor of T&S.
    Well, i don't want to sound harsh, but i think DW fans had a bit of delusion that DW, after winning Worlds, were better...the best. They were not the "eternal second" anymore. People had more simpathy for the underdogs. And also, probably their pesonalities look more likeable. Tessa and Scott don't say "humble" things, like "we just want to do our best". but rather, "we want to win", period. and this is what i love about them, but in figure skating, people don't love to hear such things. especially if they route for the other couple. in many cases, DW fans have something a little personal against them.
    Well, i don't know if there is some sort of rivalry between US and Canada, as well. For example, there is definitely a rivarly between Japan and Korea, and between some countries in Europe. i don't know, it seemed to me at times that it was a "Canada vs US" thing, but i'm not sure.
    anyway, in the 2012 season, T&S started with Finlandia Trophy and posted a good score. Everyone was probably expecting an higher score, because we were all so excited to see them again, with a new program, and have extremely high expectations for them, we know that. next time, it was DW's turn, and the score was higher. and that's when their apparent "domination" started. first, because T&S, even though they had fantastic perfomances of the FD already, are usually slow-starter, so to speak, while DW, with their big music, and a very strong support in fan boards , were already said to be skating to a masterpiece. now, i've always failed to see where the masterpiece is in this FD, and i watched it several times, even in HD, trying to spot all this supreme awesomeness, with an open mind. i couldn't maybe because their expression, and the program itself, is rather "one note". They smile all the time, and the routine doesn't seem to highlight the music expressively, etc. Now, i'm not saying that "a totally joyful" program is not good artistically. but i've always thought that in order to get a masterpiece status, one should show some complexity of expression. What their FD theme is supposed to be? two beautiful young people who dance together in the middle 19th century. Good, but there's no story, no real characters.
    And the obvious differences with Funny face have been already pointed out so well in T&S threads.
    Thanks for reading

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyross View Post
    And now a standing ovation for Golightly! woohoo!
    my 2 cents on the whole matter (something i have thought about during the whole season).
    well, i guess everything started with Tessa's injury during 2011 season. had they competed with their rocking samba FD, DW would have not came out as the dominant couple for the whole season. of course their Tango was very good, technically superb, but if T&S were there too, people could have made comparisons with the samba program, in which their chemistry and hotness was just overwhelming. Something that you didn't feel in the Tango. interestingly, infact, both teams had a latin theme (well, ok, Tango is not latin, but you get me anyway ) Competition after competition, DW earned an huge reputation. And many felt that they deserved the gold in 2010 worlds, so they thought "Now it's time for the revenge" or something. Then, the poor Tessa had that painful accident at 4cc and they were able to show only a small part of their dance. People did not have the chance to appreciate the whole thing. This wasn't a good thing heading into Worlds. At that point, the balance in "reputation" was leaning toward DW, despite their SD wasn't something memorable (and no one seems to recall that program in the discussions). Ok, so DW were the first American to get the gold in ice dance. Which, naturally, impressed the US fans (and, who knows, probably consoled some of them for the iatus in the Ladiez ) Fact 2, DW tend to show off how hard and packed their programs are, and speed is a very appreciated quality nowadays. Maybe, it is considered better having speed, more than going with the music. Tessa and Scott, as we know well, make it look easy and effortless (and they respect the music in every single second). They're obviously very fast, but since speed is not what you notice immediately in their programs (you focus on their relations and artistry, etc), fans said "DW are faster", giving this meaning to it: "hence, better in technique". As paradox, an outstanding quality like "making it look easy", does not play in favor of T&S.
    Well, i don't want to sound harsh, but i think DW fans had a bit of delusion that DW, after winning Worlds, were better...the best. They were not the "eternal second" anymore. People had more simpathy for the underdogs. And also, probably their pesonalities look more likeable. Tessa and Scott don't say "humble" things, like "we just want to do our best". but rather, "we want to win", period. and this is what i love about them, but in figure skating, people don't love to hear such things. especially if they route for the other couple. in many cases, DW fans have something a little personal against them.
    Well, i don't know if there is some sort of rivalry between US and Canada, as well. For example, there is definitely a rivarly between Japan and Korea, and between some countries in Europe. i don't know, it seemed to me at times that it was a "Canada vs US" thing, but i'm not sure.
    anyway, in the 2012 season, T&S started with Finlandia Trophy and posted a good score. Everyone was probably expecting an higher score, because we were all so excited to see them again, with a new program, and have extremely high expectations for them, we know that. next time, it was DW's turn, and the score was higher. and that's when their apparent "domination" started. first, because T&S, even though they had fantastic perfomances of the FD already, are usually slow-starter, so to speak, while DW, with their big music, and a very strong support in fan boards , were already said to be skating to a masterpiece. now, i've always failed to see where the masterpiece is in this FD, and i watched it several times, even in HD, trying to spot all this supreme awesomeness, with an open mind. i couldn't maybe because their expression, and the program itself, is rather "one note". They smile all the time, and the routine doesn't seem to highlight the music expressively, etc. Now, i'm not saying that "a totally joyful" program is not good artistically. but i've always thought that in order to get a masterpiece status, one should show some complexity of expression. What their FD theme is supposed to be? two beautiful young people who dance together in the middle 19th century. Good, but there's no story, no real characters.
    And the obvious differences with Funny face have been already pointed out so well in T&S threads.
    Thanks for reading
    Love all this

  8. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golightly View Post
    YES to all this. How many times did D-W make mistakes this season, ACTUAL mistakes, that went unnoticed by the judges? Remember how both almost fell twice on the twizzles and still got level fours? Remember that 76 at the GPF when Meryl clearly missed an edge on the second (or first, I don't remember now) choctaw? I mean, no one seems to remember this now, do we? But, oh, enter Tessa and Scott, these novice, inexperienced, green skaters who have NEVER in their entire career won anything important, they win Worlds after a couple of little bobbles that honestly, were only visible to them and all hell break loose.

    Give me a break here. The fact that some people, even V-M fans, are dissecting this win as if it were incredible, it reminds me of Tanith and Andrea's reaction after D-W lost 4CC, as if it was inconceivable that the Grand Prix and World champions could lose to the Olympic and World Champions. This is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. This is a SPORT, not a popularity contest. If this sport were judged by the audience's reaction, P-B would have won gold, W-P would be second, and D-W would have won bronze. But thankfully, this is a sport and there are technical parameters that need to be met in order to WIN and no one met those parameters better than Tessa and Scott this season.

    I respect them even more for taking something as inconsequential as that piece of music and build a program; a nuanced, exquisite program out of THAT. Name one, just one figure skater who can take that music and do what these two did. I said it at the beginning and I'll say it again: Funny Face (the music) was not a safe choice, it's not the most thrilling music in the world, it lacks pace and it's not easy to get if you haven't watched the movie, it's not the best of the Gershwin era either. They didn't pick something that would make their job easier, they did not seek to please any audiences, they picked this because it was important to them, because there is a personal attachment to this particular film and music. To that I say kudos, guys. Kudos to you.
    THIS! All of this! And I don't know what to make of Marina's comments cuz it could have been taken out of context, but in the kiss n cry both Marina and Igor didn't look very pleased that T/S had won like they couldn't even pretend to look happy IDK. Maybe they don't like funny face either and were wondering how it lost to die fledermaus lol.

  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    Maybe they don't like funny face either and were wondering how it lost to die fledermaus lol.

    They all time talking before: "We give both teams the same". So they need to work hard and love FF like the love fledermaus

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    To add on to what martyross said, I've noticed that a lot of people are using the fact that funny face didn't get the same audience response as die fled, it shouldn't have won. But ok anybody rmr last year worlds. Who clearly had the better audience response? Tessa and Scott did and I don't rmr an uproar happening about that they should have won, hypocrisy at it's best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    To add on to what martyross said, I've noticed that a lot of people are using the fact that funny face didn't get the same audience response as die fled, it shouldn't have won. But ok anybody rmr last year worlds. Who clearly had the better audience response? Tessa and Scott did and I don't rmr an uproar happening about that they should have won, hypocrisy at it's best.
    Yes. And belive me, T-S had better audience response in Nice, then D-W in Moscow. But T-S lose in Moscow, so why D-W must win in Nice?
    Especially why V-M must lose wirth such SS, like they show at the begining?

  12. #212

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    Some great points have been made in the earlier posts, so thank you Carmen and Martyross for expressing what I've been thinking as well during the last several months.

    Quote Originally Posted by twinktwink View Post
    I haven't seen any of the PBP but did the same outcry happen after S/S's win in pairs? I mean come on now THAT was a close score
    The score in pairs was so close only because S/S lost a level on their spin and were very undermarked in PCS, compared to V/T - especially in choreography and transitions - given that they had a masterpiece of a program. V/T had made a mess of their SP and certainly didn't deserve to win overall. Nobody contested Savchenko & Szolkowy's victory.

    As for the dance PBP thread, the discontented voices belonged to Meryl and Charlie's fans. The objective posters, even those who have been harsh against Tessa and Scott - mainly because they don't like Z/S's programs - all agreed that they were the deserving winners and the better ice dancers.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golightly View Post
    I respect them even more for taking something as inconsequential as that piece of music and build a program; a nuanced, exquisite program out of THAT. Name one, just one figure skater who can take that music and do what these two did. I said it at the beginning and I'll say it again: Funny Face (the music) was not a safe choice, it's not the most thrilling music in the world, it lacks pace and it's not easy to get if you haven't watched the movie, it's not the best of the Gershwin era either. They didn't pick something that would make their job easier, they did not seek to please any audiences, they picked this because it was important to them, because there is a personal attachment to this particular film and music. To that I say kudos, guys. Kudos to you.
    Well, said Golightly! It isn't the easiest music to skate to but their steadfast commitment and hard work made this program evolve so beautifully. And I remember hearing commentators saying how winning the world title back would not be easy with their music selection but had grown to love it the more and more they saw it. That's the beauty of V/M - they have so many nuances in their programs, it seems like you're learning/seeing something new in their program every time they skate it.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by IoanaC View Post
    The objective posters, even those who have been harsh against Tessa and Scott - mainly because they don't like Z/S's programs - all agreed that they were the deserving winners and the better ice dancers.
    Yeah, this is something I have noticed not just here, but elsewhere. In fact, given the reactions by member of the ice dance community over the last few years, save a few exceptions, I think V-M are considered the better ice dancers by many.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by IoanaC View Post

    The score in pairs was so close only because S/S lost a level on their spin and were very undermarked in PCS, compared to V/T - especially in choreography and transitions - given that they had a masterpiece of a program. V/T had made a mess of their SP and certainly didn't deserve to win overall. Nobody contested Savchenko & Szolkowy's victory.

    As for the dance PBP thread, the discontented voices belonged to Meryl and Charlie's fans. The objective posters, even those who have been harsh against Tessa and Scott - mainly because they don't like Z/S's programs - all agreed that they were the deserving winners and the better ice dancers.
    Thankyou, when I saw the scores come up I thought that some people might flip out at how close it was. I had wanted S/S to win because I loved how different their LP is and the journey that they'd been on with it. I really like their style in general. I couldn't believe how close it came to and I hadn't seen anything about the scores, not that I'd been actively seeking it though.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    I don't see the fuss. Look at Krylova. She is a sobbing mess at the end of w&P's fd but not at p&b's fd. Imagine if that occurred with Zoueva.
    Pechalat and BOurzat's program isn't meant to make you sad though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twinktwink View Post
    ...They performed a few elements better and that's where the scores come from. D/W didn't max out their levels and its as simple as that, its a legitimate reason to not get extra marks. The way that some people have reacted to the scores and the result is as if its still the 6.0 scoring mentality. In any case V/M had a very good performance it just wasn't PERFECTION and according to the scores neither was D/W's.
    ...
    great point, twinktwink! I think some people are equating PCS with the old artistic impression mark (though I still believe that many judges marking under the 6.0 system privileged some of the same aspects of ice dance that V&M were likely rewarded for in their PCS in Nice). There are many things that the judges are looking for in PCS, some of which, imo, Tessa and Scott do better than any other team. Both teams have their strengths in PCS.

    and I just don't get the expectation that the relative difference in PCS between the two teams would stay the same. First of all, V&M changed their programs after the GPF in response to the judges' feedback and D&W did not. These changes not only affect the linking footwork/movement and choreography marks, but could potentially affect all other categories of the PCS if the judges feel that these changes make greater use of their edges and allow them to better express the theme. Second, in previous events when one of the teams had won a category of the PCS, the margin by which they won that category was always less than 0.25 (the minimum increment by which teh judges can differentiate between teams). This means that no panel of judges unanimously awarded either team with the advantage in any PCS category. They kept the teams close. The same thing happened here. It's just that more judges happened to give V&M the edge. Different panel, different perspective, different result. I don't see how that screams corruption.

    sorry if my posts are repetitive. just felt the need to emphasize some of these points.
    Last edited by Bournekraatzfan; 04-06-2012 at 07:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IoanaC View Post
    ...
    The score in pairs was so close only because S/S lost a level on their spin and were very undermarked in PCS, compared to V/T - especially in choreography and transitions - given that they had a masterpiece of a program. V/T had made a mess of their SP and certainly didn't deserve to win overall. Nobody contested Savchenko & Szolkowy's victory.
    ...
    ITA. No one should be coming close to Aliona and Robin in transitions and choreography scores as no one has anywhere near that amount of choreographic complexity. The scores at the GPF in those areas were also close and I was

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    To add on to what martyross said, I've noticed that a lot of people are using the fact that funny face didn't get the same audience response as die fled, it shouldn't have won. But ok anybody rmr last year worlds. Who clearly had the better audience response? Tessa and Scott did and I don't rmr an uproar happening about that they should have won, hypocrisy at it's best.
    oh, but hypocrisy abounds at FSU...
    also, great point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    ITA. No one should be coming close to Aliona and Robin in transitions and choreography scores as no one has anywhere near that amount of choreographic complexity. The scores at the GPF in those areas were also close and I was
    Agree, but in LP they did very simple elements (i mean 2 A throw).
    Ad V-T were great in LP. But i was happy S-S, becasue V-T were to bad in Sp
    I am a little dissapointed i didnt saw prefect Pina. Could they save this LP for next season?

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