Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 54
  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,467
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    the spread of wealth in each disciplines to other countries
    and the shift of FS popularity to Asia

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,315
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Because Asia has worked a lot to be better !

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    557
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    The funny thing is that's one of my theories I don't quite trust. The theory goes if there's a single dominant skater (Kwan in the U.S., Plushenko in Russia), there's a bottleneck effect, which discourages younger skaters.

    But I'd need a lot more instances to see if there's any merit to my theory.
    Actually I think it might be the opposite effect - that if a single dominant skater is out there, it raises everyone's game as they try to knock that skater off their pedestal. Maybe this is a factor in several intense in-country rivalries, such as Kwan/Lipinski and Yagudin/Plushenko (maybe even Nastia and Shawn in gymnastics). Kwan was out there throwing down 7-triple skates for so long, it pushed a lot of younger skaters to master their competitive abilities too. There was that period with the 'baby ballerinas' - NNN, Cohen, Stellato, Hughes, etc. - lots of talent. Since Kwan left it's felt like a bit of a vacuum; of course this coincided with COP so maybe it just took some time for the US girls to adjust and Kwan has nothing to do with it (but doesn't Kwan always have something to do with it? )

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    1,566
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2066
    Quote Originally Posted by zippy View Post
    Actually I think it might be the opposite effect - that if a single dominant skater is out there, it raises everyone's game as they try to knock that skater off their pedestal. Maybe this is a factor in several intense in-country rivalries, such as Kwan/Lipinski and Yagudin/Plushenko (maybe even Nastia and Shawn in gymnastics). Kwan was out there throwing down 7-triple skates for so long, it pushed a lot of younger skaters to master their competitive abilities too. There was that period with the 'baby ballerinas' - NNN, Cohen, Stellato, Hughes, etc. - lots of talent. Since Kwan left it's felt like a bit of a vacuum; of course this coincided with COP so maybe it just took some time for the US girls to adjust and Kwan has nothing to do with it (but doesn't Kwan always have something to do with it? )
    The problem with your theory is that when Lipinski retired, no one beat Kwan nationally (although Cohen and Hughes did defeat her internationally), and when Yagudin retired, no one beat Plushenko nationally. The rivalries were great but short lived, leaving one true champion and a lot of wannabes, which could lead to a weaker field.

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3,700
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    The US was due for a slump in Ladies skating. Think about it since the early 1950's the US Ladies were the best almost every year or in the hunt. The only think that stopped a possible 54 year streak of medals at the Winter Olympics was the plane crash of 1961. Even then it was only 4 years later that Peggy Fleming won her first medal at Worlds when people thought it might take a decade to get back on top. US women were known for being strong competitors as well as graceful artistic etc etc and could land the jumps. But we've had girls who either couldn't jump or skate as if they are scared to death at times. Sooner or later someone will come along that has the jumps and the toughness to become a champion. There is to much talent out there for this to continue.

  6. #26
    Title-less
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    8,762
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    5559
    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    The US was due for a slump in Ladies skating.
    I totally agree. I think everything that helped Lipinski/Hughes be successful is no longer there (recent dings on URs, flutzes, minimum age rules, etc)
    Last edited by jlai; 03-25-2012 at 07:52 PM.

  7. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3,700
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I also think that American coaches were slow to pick up on the Code of Points scoring system for many years and are only now coming to grips with it. It seems like they were training there skaters like the 6.0 were still in use.

  8. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,914
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    I also think that American coaches were slow to pick up on the Code of Points scoring system for many years and are only now coming to grips with it. It seems like they were training [their] skaters like the 6.0 were still in use.
    Good point, didn't really think about this one. US Nationals continued to use 6.0 until 2006 when they finally switched. However, you had skaters like Cohen doing quite well internationally under the new system. But I think the bigger issue is the cracking down on jump landings. Plus, other countries (Japan in particular) have really caught up to us in depth and talent of ladies skaters.

    It will be interesting indeed to see the long-term effects of this drought on interest should it continue, particularly at the Winter Olympics. I think for the first time in quite awhile, ladies' figure skating flew under the radar here at the last Olympics. The attention was more on Skiing (Vonn), speed skating (Ohno) and snowboarding. Those sports seem to be picking up fans and are perfectly capable of generating Olympic buzz in the US without skating's help. And on the night of the women's free skate, NBC elected to show other sports (I think even an obscure one) where Americans did well/won medals, joining the skating only during the last group (where both Americans were skating).

    How long before women's skating is no longer THE sport at the Olympics to watch?
    Last edited by RD; 03-25-2012 at 09:26 PM.

  9. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3,700
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    If an american is in the hunt for a gold medal or medal of any kind i guarantee they won't show other sports as much as they did in Vancouver. Plus women's skating is better when the US is competitive and when they are it will be THE sport yet again to watch at the Olympics.

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    557
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    The problem with your theory is that when Lipinski retired, no one beat Kwan nationally (although Cohen and Hughes did defeat her internationally), and when Yagudin retired, no one beat Plushenko nationally. The rivalries were great but short lived, leaving one true champion and a lot of wannabes, which could lead to a weaker field.
    I don't really see how that's a problem with the theory, if anything it shows that the US produced skaters who were able to rise up and beat Kwan at Worlds and Olympics throughout her reign. The US was able to put 2 US women on the podium at Worlds or the Olympics at many points during the Kwan years, and it's only been since the exit of both Michelle and Sasha that the US has not been able to medal at Worlds or keep 3 spots. I think the phenomenon of competitiveness creating better athletes can be seen with the Japanese women today, or just in individual rinks on a smaller scale. Sometimes kids succeed faster at a known training center than at the local mall rink not only because of good coaching, but also because of the environment - they see their friends working hard, landing new triples, etc., and it pushes them to achieve the same thing or do one better.

    I definitely don't think this is the only thing at play, though. The US benefited in the 90s from lots of interest in the sport and a good economy, so more potentially talented kids were out there trying skating. I'd say the 90s were also kind of a golden period for the elite training centers like Lake Arrowhead, where so many of the top coaches and skaters were all clustered in one spot - it seems a little more decentralized now. So lots of factors from the ground up, the aftermath of the whack, plus COP and UR/flutz dings, like others have said.

  11. #31
    Comansnala?
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Vacation Island
    Posts
    2,314
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Why Is U.S. Skating No Longer Dominant?

    Was it really ever that "dominant"???

  12. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    7,137
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I would say US ladies skating was highly dominant in the period from 1996-2002, largely due in part to Michelle Kwan.

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    557
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I'd say yes, considering the US won a medal in ladies skating at nearly every Worlds from 1938 through 2006, minus a drought of a few years following the plane crash, and one or two off years like that year that Kerrigan crashed and burned in Prague, etc. Not always dominant as in winning everything in sight, but a consistent force, for sure.

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,101
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Zokko! View Post
    Was it really ever that "dominant"???
    We were dominant back in the days when only a US family could afford the sport.

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,101
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Because Asia has worked a lot to be better !
    Exactly.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    328
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I see and believe we are on the rise as far as talent again. To me I see another "Golden Era" ahead of us...The signs:


    1. Emergence of Ashley Wagner as a leader in ladies - Possibly Gracie Gold as her rival, again strong Junior and Novice ladies moving up

    2. US Dance program shows no signs of losing it's "luster"

    3. New pair teams show promise/consistency also the number of senior teams is growing again

    4. US Men are always strong, they need a leader. Jeremy seems to be showing signs of courage...also very promising youth in Junior/Novice men moving up

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,988
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    The funny thing is that's one of my theories I don't quite trust. The theory goes if there's a single dominant skater (Kwan in the U.S., Plushenko in Russia), there's a bottleneck effect, which discourages younger skaters.

    But I'd need a lot more instances to see if there's any merit to my theory.
    I've thought about that theory with other sports as well. One instance where it didn't work was after Dick Button. He was so dominant in his day that the bottleneck should have applied. I think the reason it didn't was because of the time period when Button skated - right after WWII. I wonder if you can make any correlation after Sonja Henie. World War II came along right after she skated and I don't know if there were other skaters from Norway that were affected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zokko! View Post
    Was it really ever that "dominant"???
    It was in Ladies and Men's post World War II. Europeans had had little opportunity and means to train. Very few facilities as well. Asia was not a factor.

    Men's

    1948 - Dick Button, Gold
    1952 - Dick Button, Gold, James Grogan, Bronze
    1956 - Hayes Jenkins, Gold, Ronnie Robertson, Silver, David Jenkins, Bronze - USA sweep.
    1960 - David Jenkins, Gold (David performed a triple axel at exhibitions - 18 years before it was performed in competition).

    Ladies

    1952 - Tenley Albright, Silver
    1956 - Tenley Albright, Gold, Carol Heiss, Silver
    1960 - Carol Heiss, Gold, Barbara Roles, Bronze
    (1948 was Barbara Ann Scott's Gold for Canada. Not the US but definitely North American and another victory for Gus Lussi).

    Pairs

    The US had the Kennedy's winning silver in 1952 and the Ludingtons winning bronze in 1960 but no country really had dominance until the USSR started competing in 1964

    Dance

    Ice Dancing wasn't included in the Olympics until 1976 so the post World War II time period doesn't apply.

    It is also interesting to wonder if the dominance in ladies and men's would have continued if the 1961 World team had not been lost.
    Last edited by A.H.Black; 03-26-2012 at 01:07 AM.

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    347
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I live in Canada where we seem to be having the same issue where skating isn't as big as it was in the 90s/early 2000s but I think the popularity of a sport is driven in large part to marketing and economics. Skating just isn't "selling" as a sport as much as it used to and this means that sponsorship and coverage is on the decline and the cost of competing is on the rise, which is especially hard during such difficult economic times. The skating federations don't have as much money to put into skater development programs and marketing. Unless you come from a fairly well off family, it's very difficult to pay the costs for the type of rigorous training that is required to reach the elite level. It's sad, but I think skaters just aren't getting the same opportunities that they once would in Canada and the US.

  19. #39

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    47
    Posts
    17,918
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    30599
    ^ Unless you are a sport that appeals to the majority of male sporting spectators who the networks appeal to, then unfortunately you are not going to have the same profile.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  20. #40

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    2,683
    vCash
    400
    Rep Power
    8867
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    ^ Unless you are a sport that appeals to the majority of male sporting spectators who the networks appeal to, then unfortunately you are not going to have the same profile.
    Yeah, Aussie Rules and rugby.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •