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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    I did that because HE DID say those cocky statements. I did not go out and insult him any chance I got like Chan haters do.
    I see--so you were justified in bashing another skater (even though you claimed you don't engage in such behaviors--at least we've clarified that's untrue). It's just not okay for people to criticize the skater you like because that's, like, so totally different.

    Got it

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    I can't help thinking if some skater came around with better skating skills than Patrick (could happen Chan fans) and said skater started winning with 4 falls, a program over a much cleaner Patrick, that a lot of Patrick's fans would be crying foul. I'm imagining now the Canadian press...
    Another example someone like to make baseless assumption

    At the end of the day my issue is if all that matters is skating skills, why have things like jumps and spins? Let them all skate around the ice, do moves in the field etc and be done with it.
    Chan's score was NOT just based on skating skills. It's based on a combinations of ALL other components, choreography, transitions, jumps, edges, speeds, degree of difficulty etc. He won based on all these qualities. But of course, haters like to replace these qualities by "accumulative falls"

    My other problems the judges are hardly consistent when it comes to PCS. Kozuka, who has fabulous basic skating of his own, is not getting anywhere NEAR those kind of PCS, and others like Daisuke not getting credit for things he does better interpretation/performance.
    Kozuka doesn't command the ice rink. He always "look down" while he skates that comes across as lack of confident in the eyes of the judges. It's his bad habit that he needs to change.

    I actually do think in the end if the elements are close the best skater should really win. But I find the concept of someone winning with four falls in a competition (and people saying someone did more ROTATIONS as justification.. Why even have a competition then?
    Chan did not win with four falls. He want with great quality skating AND other errors made by other skaters. It's a combination of both.

    This is suppose to be a sport and delivering on the ice should matter. IMO. It bothers me that this system they have created says it doesn't. And thats why Chan fans are saying, right? The system says how clean you skate doesn't matter.
    Skating clean has nothing to do with the system. Were all skates cleaned under 6.0?

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    So somebody writes a stupid article about Chan and suddenly that's Canadian prejudice against "Asian dudes"? You have no idea what you're talking about.
    OHh puurrlllleease you clearly have no idea what I am referring to do you.

    This is not about prejudiced against Asians, but about how clueless some of those so called 'journalist' who think they are smart aleks that can get get away with their creative cheesy puns referring Asians, be they racially insensitive, provocative or weirdly inappropriate. Have '6 toughest inches' ever been referred to any past skaters, male or female? So why now?

    OT. Pieces like this always says more about the writer than the subject matter. During Linsanity, there were all sort of weird headline appearing in the US press, that shows they are not used to deal with having successful Asian Americans without the stereotyping (Asian American male are probably among the most under represented in the main media, they always appear as either nerds, triads, cooks, waiters or office workers). Weird headlines and crazy puns suddenly appeared all week that although are not intentionally racist, but inevitably are.

    Headlines like 'Amasian' (WTH is that?) appeared,
    Fortune Cookie for the Knicks, and an ESPN staff even got fired for writing the headline 'A Chink in the armor' the first time Lin lose his winning streaks. Bit of an over reaction maybe, but necessary in the view of a steep learning curve from journalist community dealing with racial sensitivity.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_feFqoUM0ks

    My personal favourite worst pun: Jere-meat Sauce with Lin-guine. At least it does not refer to his race and is so laugh out bad.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    I see--so you were justified in bashing another skater (even though you claimed you don't engage in such behaviors--at least we've clarified that's untrue). It's just not okay for people to criticize the skater you like because that's, like, so totally different.

    Got it
    Chan got criticized and insulted whether it's his interviews, or ARTICLES written by others about him, or getting high scores by the judges or whatever reasons out there. I responded to whatever Abbott said, but at least I don't insult his skates or whatever mean stuff often heard from Chan's haters.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    The writing with all the similes, metaphors and cliches made my head hurt.
    Steve Milton.. what do you expect? It's commercial writing for the masses.. I think as figure skating fans we should just appreciate a sports writer who actually seems to like figure skating..
    Thanks to PI .. I discovered I'm actually a Nontheist

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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by foreverkwanfan View Post
    Chan is way overhyped and his skating does not live up to the hype.
    What I find happens is that Chan gets such overinflated marks in the SP that no one can catch up.
    We may as well just give him the gold now so all the other skaters can just fight for silver and bronze.
    I would really love a surprise win at worlds, a win no one could have predicted, a come from behind shocker. But, yawn, Chan will win, again.
    Chan was not overhyped. His straight wins in the last year or so made it the news.

    Which SP he got overinflated? Care to elaborate which mark and show the breakdown?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Chan got criticized and insulted whether it's his interviews, or ARTICLES written by others about him, or getting high scores by the judges or whatever reasons out there. I responded to whatever Abbott said, but at least I don't insult his skates or whatever mean stuff often heard from Chan's haters.
    Like I said--you're bashing of others is totally different and okay!

    Perhaps a little self-reflection is in order

    As I said before, the majority of critiques for Chan personally are based on things he says in interviews which some find problematic. Kinda like you did with Abbott .

    The other stuff that I see is typically critiques of COP and/or judging WRT some of Chan's scores (but not usually his placements), or regarding the OTT behavior of some of Chan's fans here. I think it's important to distinguish those critiques/criticisms from those directed at Chan himself.

    Unfortunately, a minority of Chan fans aren't able to do that.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    But I don't recall people disliking *Chan* for that--only critiquing the judges. You specified dislike for Chan himself, and I just don't see that much.
    To give an example, some have said Patrick is cocky, rude and arrogant - which is about his personality and attitude, not the judges - and that his inflated scores only support his overly large ego and allow him to just coast along due to his 3-mistake advantage.

    And to be fair, many of the same judging criticisms emerged with Slutskaya and Plushenko. I just don't see how Chan is anywhere near one of the most disliked skaters---as I said in my previous post, Rachel Flatt anyone?
    I would agree about Slutskaya, Plushenko and Flatt. But the reason Patrick seems to me among the most hated is that when he wins with falls and mistakes, I fear the board will implode. Maybe the same occurred with 'truckdriver' Slutskaya, but I just don't remember. And I didn't follow the Kwan threads, which was likely where a lot of the Irina hating was expressed.

    It's certainly been said that Plushenko is over-scored and he certainly received a lot of criticism for his arrogant behaviour at the 2010 Olympics. Even under 6.0 he was considered to be over-marked artistically by some. But, it seems to me that there was general consensus that he he rightfully dominated the field because of his jump content and consistency under 6.0. People may not have liked him, but it was difficult to say he wuz gifted under 6.0, especially given that he was chasing Yagudin for a good part of his career. IIRC even Dick Button, who is very opinionated, conceded that Plushenko was deserving of his top ranking position and I remember him saying that Plusheko was like Fred Astaire in that he "bamboozled the audience with his hands".

    In 2006 Plusheko's Olympic performance was rather robotic and uninspired, but I don't recall anyone saying that Lambiel and Buttle should have won the title.

    Flatt is definitely disliked and gets a lot of criticism (much of it unfair IMO) , but she's not a World Champion so doesn't get the attention that Chan does.

    Chan seems to me among the most hated because of the volume of posts/threads that focus on his character faults as well as his inflated scores.

    So this is my impression and opinion, which I have clearly presented as such in saying "it seems to me". I've not followed such equally long and negative threads about other skaters who were disliked equally or disliked more.

    Of course, no one wants to count negative posts and threads about skaters to rank the most-hated on FSU, but if someone did, and Patrick came in fifth or whatever I'd have no issue with it.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    I can't help thinking if some skater came around with better skating skills than Patrick (could happen Chan fans) and said skater started winning with 4 falls, a program over a much cleaner Patrick, that a lot of Patrick's fans would be crying foul. I'm imagining now the Canadian press...
    FYI, it is possible to be a fan of more than one skater. Even if one has a favourite, a discerning fan can understand why that person loses to another. Yes, even in the case of a clean Chan against someone with better basic skills.

    At the end of the day my issue is if all that matters is skating skills, why have things like jumps and spins? Let them all skate around the ice, do moves in the field etc and be done with it.
    Um, Patrick gets marks for his jumps and spins just like everyone else.

    I actually do think in the end if the elements are close the best skater should really win. But I find the concept of someone winning with four falls in a competition (and people saying someone did more ROTATIONS as justification.. Why even have a competition then?
    When did Chan win with four falls? The most I can remember would be three falls or three major mistakes. And Lambiel had wins with similar errors. In fact, I remember his coming back from a terrible SP to win Skate Canada in 2007 with something like five mistakes.

    And rotations count, like it or not. And the base mark counts too. Takahashi has had a lower base mark than Chan this season. You can argue than Chan is over-marked in terms of PCS, but his technical scores are justifiable according to the system.

    This is suppose to be a sport and delivering on the ice should matter. IMO. It bothers me that this system they have created says it doesn't. And that's why Chan fans are saying, right? The system says how clean you skate doesn't matter.
    That is not what all Chan fans are saying. You can be a fan and still disagree with the judging. You can be a fan and still prefer your favourite to lose to a better skater in a strong field than win with a flawed performance in a weak field.

    But when a skate with errors wins over a clean skate, the argument is almost always that the winning skate was more difficult, artistic or choreographically complex. There are innumerable examples of that, B&S versus S&P being the most the most immediately comes to mind.

    I will say that I have a problem with any uber that is so much of an uber that they care more about their skater than this sport in general. I was totally a huge fan of Yu-na Kim, but that didn't mean I thought she deserved to win the Free at 2010 Worlds over Asada, sure Asada had technical issues of her own but Asada's PCS should have been much higher.
    And Patrick fans can be equally capable of the same discernment.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    To give an example, some have said Patrick is cocky, rude and arrogant - which is about his personality and attitude, not the judges - and that his inflated scores only support his overly large ego and allow him to just coast along due to his 3-mistake advantage.
    I think you're mixing up conversations. You initially said Chan was one of the most disliked skaters ever. I (and others) said no, others have received far harsher treatment, and I said much of the criticisms are leveled at Chan's supporters. You responded that criticism is primarily focused on judging. I said that's true, but that's not criticism directed at Chan personally. The criticisms directed personally at Chan are comments regarding statements he's made over the years in various articles. And yes, some think he's cocky, etc.

    But the discussions over his perceived cockiness tend to be separate from judging and COP discussions.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    When did Chan win with four falls?
    2010 Skate Canada. He fell three times in the short (on the 4t, 3a, and in the straight line step sequence) and once in the free skate, finishing ahead of Oda and Rippon.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    This is not about prejudiced against Asians, but about how clueless some of those so called 'journalist' who think they are smart aleks that can get get away with their creative cheesy puns referring Asians, be they racially insensitive, provocative or weirdly inappropriate.
    So Asians are the only ethnic group that sportswriters make "creative cheesy puns" about? I don't think so.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  13. #93
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    I agree with some of the other posters.. the Chan hate is palpable.. I have been on these boards since almost the beginning and usually stay out of the trash can.. but hard to avoid the Chan hate.. I can't recall another skater who gathers quite as much venom.. I've actually met him and he is really, really nice - even the other competitors like him.. I know sometimes he has some foot and mouth issues.. but still I'm not sure what it is about him that tweaks people so Especially as he is not responsible for what a writer writes.. or what a Judge - Judges..
    Thanks to PI .. I discovered I'm actually a Nontheist

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  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    FYI, it is possible to be a fan of more than one skater. Even if one has a favourite, a discerning fan can understand why that person loses to another. Yes, even in the case of a clean Chan against someone with better basic skills.



    Um, Patrick gets marks for his jumps and spins just like everyone else.



    When did Chan win with four falls? The most I can remember would be three falls or three major mistakes. And Lambiel had wins with similar errors. In fact, I remember his coming back from a terrible SP to win Skate Canada in 2007 with something like five mistakes.

    And rotations count, like it or not. And the base mark counts too. Takahashi has had a lower base mark than Chan this season. You can argue than Chan is over-marked in terms of PCS, but his technical scores are justifiable according to the system.



    That is not what all Chan fans are saying. You can be a fan and still disagree with the judging. You can be a fan and still prefer your favourite to lose to a better skater in a strong field than win with a flawed performance in a weak field.

    But when a skate with errors wins over a clean skate, the argument is almost always that the winning skate was more difficult, artistic or choreographically complex. There are innumerable examples of that, B&S versus S&P being the most the most immediately comes to mind.



    And Patrick fans can be equally capable of the same discernment.

    First of all I've criticized some of Lambiel's scores before and Daisuke's. I never said that all Patrick Chan fans are so crazy uberish that they can recognize some skater skated better... There are plenty who can.

    But there are some on this board who will defend any result Patrick has-falling 3 or 4 times or not. Then there who are some who may not be ubers but think falling 3/4 times and still winning is no biggie because all that matters is transitions/skating skills.

    I actually do think Patrick is EXTREMELY disliked though. I do think its more a dislike of the judging and not him.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4rkidz View Post
    I agree with some of the other posters.. the Chan hate is palpable.. I have been on these boards since almost the beginning and usually stay out of the trash can.. but hard to avoid the Chan hate.. I can't recall another skater who gathers quite as much venom.. I've actually met him and he is really, really nice - even the other competitors like him.. I know sometimes he has some foot and mouth issues.. but still I'm not sure what it is about him that tweaks people so Especially as he is not responsible for what a writer writes.. or what a Judge - Judges..
    I have to agree. It really is quite noticeable how much hate he seems to engender on this forum.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    I think you're mixing up conversations. You initially said Chan was one of the most disliked skaters ever. I (and others) said no, others have received far harsher treatment, and I said much of the criticisms are leveled at Chan's supporters. You responded that criticism is primarily focused on judging. I said that's true, but that's not criticism directed at Chan personally. The criticisms directed personally at Chan are comments regarding statements he's made over the years in various articles. And yes, some think he's cocky, etc.

    But the discussions over his perceived cockiness tend to be separate from judging and COP discussions.
    My perception is different. I haven't perceived a whole lot of criticism to be directed at Chan's supporters rather than at him or the judging of his programs. I'm a Chan fan - though not an uber - and haven't felt criticized for that. But it's possible that I haven't paid much attention to posts that criticize the ubers because I'm not that interested in them.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    I have read enough posts to know the intention from some of the posters, who like to find any excuses to insult Chan and his skate.

    Nope, everyone has their favourite skaters. I don't go gaga over Dai or other skaters like many do. But I don't go out to bash them, insult them or ridicule them like Chan gets from his haters either.
    How quickly we forget. I believe you said something to the effect that "Dai's overrated; his artistry over the top; nothing in between the jumps and the arm movements..." for starters. That's just one that I remember off the top of my head; there are others.

  18. #98

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    My perception is that it's the judging that gets criticized, and not so much Chan. For this particular article, the writer was being ridiculed, but some Chan ubers took it to mean as criticism and hatred toward Chan. I see the same reaction when judges marks for Chan are criticized. It's like Chan must never be criticized for anything at all, whether the criticism was actually directed toward him or not. Just stating my observations.

  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    My perception is that it's the judging that gets criticized, and not so much Chan. For this particular article, the writer was being ridiculed, but some Chan ubers took it to mean as criticism and hatred toward Chan. I see the same reaction when judges marks for Chan are criticized. It's like Chan must never be criticized for anything at all, whether the criticism was actually directed toward him or not. Just stating my observations.
    I do think there is a lot of personal criticism directed towards him as well, it is not just judging issues. Particularly about comments he has made.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    SIGH... as with any Chanflation topics, I have always asked what exactly Patrick should get in terms of TES + PCS and what his competitors should get to win over him for those competitions that Chan won with supposedly 4 falls cushion.

    Still no Chaters can give me a solid answer.

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