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  1. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by A judge View Post
    That is positively ridiculous. You should not be posting as you know little about the sport. Take some judging clinics.

    If Taka had landed a quad triple perhaps he could have won but not the way he skated.
    Chan won fair and square. You can argue that his PCS should have been lower in P/E and perhaps INT and that the two should have been closer numerically. I won't disagree there, but after watching both programs several times, would have to say Taka deserved higher P/E but not INT.

    The win was Chan's. I love Daisuke, but he needs more than a completely clean skate to trump Chan - a second quad and few more difficult nuances, like a hop into a spin. Chan's just delivering the most difficult content out there today.

    That said, I'd love him to rival Taka in emotion. After his watching his Rach gala performance, I thought that this is music he needs for a free program. More emotion and musicality in those 2 minutes that I have seen from Chan in five years or so.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by A judge View Post
    That is positively ridiculous. You should not be posting as you know little about the sport. Take some judging clinics.

    If Taka had landed a quad triple perhaps he could have won but not the way he skated.
    There is no need to insult users who don't share your opinion. And besides, read the scores: If Takahashi had added a triple to this quad and got great GOEs he would have gained about 6 points. Of course he had to change the program and cut off one other combination from the end, losing maybe about 2 Points. So 4 Points! Not even close to beat Chan... This is actually not as much as Chan got more for his PCs than Dai.

    Maybe Chan deserved to win this competition based on his quads or based on better element scores in the short program but certainly not for the overall impression he left but this is where he clearly got the most points.

  3. #223
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    I am not insulting users but I feel that someone should not say that Taki should have won based on the two performances. It makes the board look ridiculous.

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    What I think is a tad ridiculous is for someone to claim expertise on judging, then say Chan was the decisive victor in the free skate because Dai didn't land a quad triple combo when the TES is virtually equal.

    Perhaps some should take a look at the protocols to see that the 5 point difference in scores came from the difference in PCS--not TES.

    ETA: Ok, the protocols didn't copy well. But folk can see that pretty clearly for themselves. Considering the two point deduction for Chan came from a mistake on an element which resulted in going overtime, that would mean Dai actually won on the elements in the free skate.
    Last edited by agalisgv; 04-02-2012 at 06:31 PM.

  5. #225

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    The deduction gets taken off the total score, not just the TES score. The TES score for both Chan and Dai were pretty much the same, even after Chan's mistakes which resulted in a lower GOEs for those elements.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  6. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by A judge View Post
    I am not insulting users but I feel that someone should not say that Taki should have won based on the two performances. It makes the board look ridiculous.
    ........

    ..........

    Um, yes, based on two performances, Takahashi should have won, IMO. They were the two performances he gave AT THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS, which, when you are deciding the winner of the world championships, are the only two performances that count.

  7. #227

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    IMHO, you can boo a score, but not boo a person directly when he is named the winner. That's just plain unethical- bad fairplay display. I am not even arguing who should or should not have won. Good etiquette, good fairplay wasn't at the meet...

  8. #228
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    I am puzzled. What do people think Chan should get in TES + PCS in the SP and LP compare to Dai?

    I agree Dai should have gotten higher marks in the PCS but overall it should not have beaten Chan.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    ........

    ..........

    Um, yes, based on two performances, Takahashi should have won, IMO. They were the two performances he gave AT THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS, which, when you are deciding the winner of the world championships, are the only two performances that count.
    In fairness, your initial viewing of the skate had Chan falling on his backside twice, so I'm not entirely sure how accurate it is to state you are judging the two performances Chan gave at the event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    The deduction gets taken off the total score, not just the TES score.
    I'm aware of that. My point was the error occurred during an element, not a MITF or transition. And the larger point was the difference in placement in the free skate between Chan and Dai was because of PCS--not TES. So saying Dai should have had a quad triple misses the point because that's not where the free skate was lost.

  11. #231
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    So the Dai fans are crying the river again that he lost yet another competition to Chan? Yawn...

  12. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    In fairness, your initial viewing of the skate had Chan falling on his backside twice, so I'm not entirely sure how accurate it is to state you are judging the two performances Chan gave at the event.
    I have since watched the videos on Youtube in a more coherent state.

    But my point above was more addressing 'A judge' who seems to think that people who decide who should have won Worlds based on the two performances given at Worlds is ridiculous. My question is, what are we choosing the winner from, if not from the two performances given at the competition?

  13. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Um, yes, based on two performances, Takahashi should have won, IMO. They were the two performances he gave AT THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS, which, when you are deciding the winner of the world championships, are the only two performances that count.
    So let's look at the two performances of both skaters. Below are the protocols for comparison.

    SP Scores - http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._SP_Scores.pdf

    FS Scores - http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FS_Scores.pdf

    The SP scores showed a difference of 2.81 in favour of Chan for Technical and 0.88 difference in favour of Chan in the PCS. So I am not sure why you can say that Takahashi should have beaten Chan on the SP because the technical clearly went to Chan. The PCS were a minimal factor in the placements. In fact Brezina had a 2.46 advantage over Chan on the TES.

    For the FS the difference was in the TES 0.4 in favour of Chan (although Hanyu had an advantage of 3.43 over Chan). The PCS were definately in favour of Chan which was 4.36. But has been argued many times here there are those that think that Dai's PCS should have been higher than Chan's. And vice versa. But if you are looking at it from the judging point of view, I totally understand why Chan would be higher in PCS overall. And as much as I love Dai's musicality, I still have to give it to Chan because I have to put my judging hat on with these things.

    Please correct my maths if I am wrong here. I am pretty crap at maths.

    But before going off half-cocked about that Takahashi should have won both programs, look at the protocols because they do tell the story.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Considering the two point deduction for Chan came from a mistake on an element which resulted in going overtime, that would mean Dai actually won on the elements in the free skate.
    Are you saying that his waxel resulted in him going overtime? That would be an odd statement to make. Am I misunderstanding?
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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  15. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    But before going off half-cocked about that Takahashi should have won both programs, look at the protocols because they do tell the story.
    We can disagree forever about PCS. In this case I understand why you believe Chan should have won.

    However, that wasn't my point in replying to "A judge". My point was that "A judge" was implying that people who thought the winner should have been chosen based on the two programs performed at worlds were ridiculous. I want to know how "A judge" chose the winner if not from the two programs performed AT the competition.

  16. #236

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    I think A Judge meant that s/he thought that if you thought Takahashi should win based on those 2 programs it was ridiculous - not that basing your judgement on them was ridiculous and that you should be judging on something else.

    That is how I took it anyhow.

  17. #237
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    I suggest people to rewatch both Dai and Patrick's LP at Worlds again. No need to watch the whole thing, just simply from the opening pose to the first quad.

    Just from that it is evident that why Patrick deserves higher PCS in many categories.

  18. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    I am puzzled. What do people think Chan should get in TES + PCS in the SP and LP compare to Dai?

    I agree Dai should have gotten higher marks in the PCS but overall it should not have beaten Chan.

    What PCS would you have given him and Chan, and why?

    And I too would like those who think Dai should have won explain how they would have scored his and Patrick's two programs.

    Particularly with regard to PCS, I'd like to know what the scores would be and why with reference to the bullet points for each category.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    What PCS would you have given him and Chan, and why?

    And I too would like those who think Dai should have won explain how they would have scored his and Patrick's two programs.

    Particularly with regard to PCS, I'd like to know what the scores would be and why with reference to the bullet points for each category.
    To be honest I don't know how to give marks. I don't know what a 9.0 or a 8.5 really mean.

    I do know that I'd give Patrick higher score in SS, TR, by a 0.5 margin, 0.25 in CH PE and tied in IN. So over all Chan a 3 pts higher in PCS than Dai.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    I do know that I'd give Patrick higher score in SS, TR, by a 0.5 margin, 0.25 in CH PE and tied in IN.
    His lead over everyone (including Takahashi) in TR is muuuuch bigger than 0.5. Part of it comes down to double-dipping on transitions that go into/out of jumps, which can count for +GOE, TR and CH which is something of a flaw in the system, but it's really huge. Like, 1-1.5 range. If anything, he doesn't get enough credit there. CH is pretty big as well, definitely more than .25 even over skaters like Daisuke and Jeremy (who had a kind of empty long this season anyway), who are themselves waaaay above the programs most of the other guys are doing.

    I love both Blues for Klook and Aranjuez, but Aranjuez is just so much better put together as a program it's unreal.

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