View Poll Results: How should we call the spiral sequences in these short program?

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  • 2012 short program rules: count them as transitions

    7 25.00%
  • 2012 long program rules: count them as ChSp if and only if they hold positions for enough seconds

    2 7.14%
  • Everyone gets credit for ChSp regardless of how long they held positions and GOE will distinguish

    18 64.29%
  • Use 2010 rules for levels (or no credit)

    1 3.57%
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  1. #1

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    FSU Judging Game -- 1998 Olympics Ladies Short Program

    Let's give this a try and see how FSU would have called and judged this under 2012 rules.

    I can be the technical caller -- can we get at least one other volunteer to help verify the calls?

    Is there anyone out there who has a program set up to do the accounting?

    After we post the calls, then judges can send their scores by PM.

    Let's get a consensus on what to do about the spiral sequence. In 1998 a spiral sequence was required, but the only requirements, as far as I remember/can tell from examples, were that it had to include both forward and backward spirals and maybe both right and left foot. No restrictions on length of positions or guidelines on positions beyond free leg at least hip height.

    In 2012 there is no spiral sequence in the short program and rules for a "choreographic spiral sequence" in the free program: at least two spiral positions of 3 seconds or more, or one position held for at leat 6 seconds. Either meets those criteria and gets 2.0 basemark plus/minus GOE, or it gets no credit.

    We also know about the leveled spiral sequence from 2004-2010, but that doesn't seem appropriate here.

    Please indicate in the poll what you think is the best way to handle them here.

    I was too lazy to look up the skate order, so here are the links I could find in alphabetical order. If anyone knows where to find other SPs online, especially Liashenko, Sokolova, and Malinina, please post.

    Bonaly

    Butyrskaya

    Chen

    Gusmeroli

    Kwan

    Lipinski

    Slutskaya

  2. #2
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    I'd love to take part in this as a judge!

  3. #3
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    I think setting a base value for the element will work the best b/c certain skaters have good spirals and others don't--the GOE will distinguish the two. Skaters with beautiful spirals deserve to be rewarded for them. It's a skill that not all skaters can pull off. I don't like it as part of the "Transition" score b/c it's an overall score; since CoP is all about breaking points down, I want to see exactly what the judges thought of it.

    I definitely want to see the spiral back in the SP as a requirement. Spirals are iconic. I don't like the gain-a-level requirements though. I do think there should be a minimum hold on the position (3 secs is enough) but not in terms of how many positions equals an extra level b/c then everything looks the same (ie. arabesque, COE to catch-foot, backwards catch-foot or heel stretch)

    Give me a nicely extended classic arabesque spiral and I'm good...

  4. #4
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    i honestly dont know.
    i think good spiral sequenced should be counted separted because as we can tell not all does than right, correctly at all.they slouch, bend too far, etc.

  5. #5
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    Haven't we done this one already?
    Dá-lhe, Isadora!!
    Lead me not into temptation. I can find it, and eat it, all by myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beepbeep View Post
    Haven't we done this one already?
    Hmm...I remember the 1988 and 2002 Olympic ladies' SP judging games, but not one for 1998.

  7. #7
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    Wherever possible, I would suggest constructing rules that don't award 0 points to a skater for an element that's not quite up to today's prescriptions, but easily could've been with minor modifications.

    E.g., I wouldn't be surprised if there are spins that are worth nothing because they're not up to today's revolution requirements. And/or skaters whose free skate spins violate rules (e.g., no spin that's only in one position or a spin with a repeated code) and are technically worth nothing. Sequences could be a problem, too. I think, technically, Kwan would get called as having done a 3Lo followed by a separate 2T, thus making her second 3Lz an extra, non-counted jumping pass.

  8. #8
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    I will help out as a judge.

    gkelly, I have the program on my computer. If you want to send me the marks I could input them and tabulate the results.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis View Post
    Wherever possible, I would suggest constructing rules that don't award 0 points to a skater for an element that's not quite up to today's prescriptions, but easily could've been with minor modifications.

    E.g., I wouldn't be surprised if there are spins that are worth nothing because they're not up to today's revolution requirements. And/or skaters whose free skate spins violate rules (e.g., no spin that's only in one position or a spin with a repeated code) and are technically worth nothing. Sequences could be a problem, too. I think, technically, Kwan would get called as having done a 3Lo followed by a separate 2T, thus making her second 3Lz an extra, non-counted jumping pass.
    We're only doing the short program, for just those reasons. The only change in the minimum requirements for the short programs is the removal of the spiral sequence.

    Probably all the step sequences and most of the spins will probably be level 1. But the steps will go end to end or complete a circle, and the spins will be a layback (minimum 8 revs), a flying spin in one position (minimum 8), and a combo spin with one change of foot and all three basic positions (6 on each foot), same as it is today.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    I will help out as a judge.

    gkelly, I have the program on my computer. If you want to send me the marks I could input them and tabulate the results.
    Great, thanks.

    I'll post the calls tonight if no one else volunteers to help call, and then we can have other judges send you the scores? or send to me and I'll collect and format them for you till we get enough?

    Deadline Monday?

  11. #11

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    Give people a bit more time. I would say next Friday.

    Jenna - glad you are happy to do the accounting.

    I might do some judging. Where can we send our marks?

    ETA - I would suggest getting ISU Communication 1611 to look at the positive bullet points too. The guidelines are really useful for helping to look for the positive things skaters are doing.
    Last edited by Aussie Willy; 03-22-2012 at 11:24 PM.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Give people a bit more time. I would say next Friday.
    The problem is that by then people will be focusing on 2012 Worlds and if we wait we might never get the rest of the scores and those who already scored will have lost interest.

    Jenna - glad you are happy to do the accounting.

    I might do some judging. Where can we send our marks?
    Jenna, do you want them to send marks to you or to me first?

    ETA - I would suggest getting ISU Communication 1611 to look at the positive bullet points too. The guidelines are really useful for helping to look for the positive things skaters are doing.
    Agreed.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    The problem is that by then people will be focusing on 2012 Worlds and if we wait we might never get the rest of the scores and those who already scored will have lost interest.
    You are right - hadn't thought of that.

    I can do this this time because I am home sick from work.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  14. #14
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    We did 1998 Olympics SP before for the ladies...
    Last edited by smarts1; 03-23-2012 at 01:49 AM.

  15. #15

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    Yes, we did. But the results are no longer available.

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...5&postcount=47

    If people want to debate in the 1998 Olympics Ladies FS Under COP thread, do they want to get specific (again) by breaking down the elements and margin of victory for the short program?

    In answer to who would have won the long program (or who would have come in third in the very tight race for bronze), there's no way to tell because the rules were so different.

    Or we could take Louis's suggestion and judge the long programs according to our own modified rules that give credit for every element that was legal by 1998 rules.

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