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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    She still did not have quality skating skills and whilst that program might have been one of her best ones, she really didn't have any finese or great quality to her movement.
    Bonaly did not know how to skate between her jumps. She looked like she was skating on double runners. I saw no edge quality out there on her best nights. She telegraphed jumps from across the rink, stopped, braked, turned then launched herself into jumps landing in a jerky manner most of the time. She muscled every thing. She had some interesting artistic choices except for her attempt to copy Usova and Zhulin's Vivaldi "Four Season's" FD in one of her FS programs, even down to some of their movements which was laughable in the extreme. That being said-I did like watching Bonaly in exhibition.
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    CoP would not have been kind to Surya Bonaly at the 1998 Olympics.

    She was short of rotation on one of her spins in the SP. In the FS, she underrotated her triple flip and triple loop, fell on her 3T-half loop-3S combo (and may have underrotated the salchow), two-footed a few of her jumps (requiring negative GOE), turned her 3T+2R into a 3T+1R, did an illegal element, and telegraphed several of her jumps (requiring a reduction in GOE). And she would not have done very well on PCS.

    That said, neither Bonaly nor her rivals skated with CoP in mind. If CoP had been around when she first took up competitive figure skating, she might have been an entirely different skater. Given her physical strength, I think she would have at the very least been more consistent in fully rotating her jumps and would have been less prone to telegraphing. She probably would have worked more on improving her skating skills, as she did to some degree after she turned professional.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    That said, neither Bonaly nor her rivals skated with CoP in mind.
    Of course they didn't. It didn't exist then.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    I'm not sure about the 3t but the 3s was horribly UR.
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pKT4e9sjYI&t=4m01s

    I'd prefer a clearer video with slow motion, but it looks OK to me -- not 90 degrees UR, much less "horribly."
    Yeah, I don't see any "horrible" underrotation.

    I'm not sure who would have prevailed, but I tend to think all of Tara and Michelle's jumps, including Tara's triple-triple combos and sequences, would have been ratified. I think the calling is less strict at the Olympics, probably to appease the once-every-four-years crowd. The callers were pretty generous at the last Olympics - so long as the skaters (especially the top-level skaters) landed the jumps on one foot and rotation was close, they mostly got the benefit of the doubt (thinking especially of Evan and Mao's 3As here). There were some exceptions (Rachael, Daisuke) but Michelle and Tara were the two most recent World Champions going into Nagano and the frontrunners for gold; I bet they would have been spared.
    Last edited by Cheylana; 03-20-2012 at 11:51 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by alchemy void View Post
    I think Lipinski clearly wins over Kwan.

    What's fascinating for me, is just below that.

    Butyrskaya had a great SP that would have put her right in the mix with MK and TL. However, the LP was a different story. 5 shaky triples, no combinations, two jumping passes of 2toe. Definitely 5th in the freeskate, for me, behind Slutskaya and Gusmeroli.

    Slutskaya had a great COP friendly LP. 5 strong triples, superior spins, a triple triple after the halfway point, decent transitions into some of the jumps. Even with a double lutz in the SP I think she easily wins bronze as that SP was one of her best stylistically and filled with content: footwork into the loop, tano axel, spins, good transitons, etc.

    Gusmeroli's LP was definitely 4th for me. Her popped lutz in the SP keeps her below Butyrskaya overall though. But that LP is an overlooked masterpiece: great theme, elements, choreography, and tons of trnasitions.

    So I'd guess something like this in the SP
    Kwan, Lipinski, Butyrskaya all relatively close

    Gap

    4. Bonaly
    5. Slutskaya
    6. Malinina (great TES, terrible PCS) or Lu (great PCS, terrible TES)
    8. Gusmeroli

    LP
    1. Lipinski
    2. Kwan
    3. Slutskaya
    4. Gusmeroli
    5. Butyrskaya
    6. Chen Lu or Malinina
    8. Sokolova
    9. Bonaly, Lavrrnchuk, etc

    Overall
    1.Lipinski
    2. Kwan
    3. Slutskaya
    4. Butyrskaya
    5. Gusmeroli
    6. Malinina
    7. Lu (i think her TES would be so low)
    8. Sokolova
    9. Bonaly
    I think Maria would have definitely won the bronze over Irina under COP. Irina's SP with a double lutz-double toe would have had her way behind. She may not have even made the final flight under COP. Her LP was very good but PCS would have been pretty low, enough for a shaky Maria to hold her big short program edge.

    Lu Chen would have never medaled under COP. Her TES would have been very low in both programs, even though everyone was thrilled under 6.0 to see her mostly stand up all the jumps after a couple of years of disaester, and actually attempt and land more triples than Maria or Irina in the LP which under 6.0 made her appear atleast competent technically, but under COP the poorly executed jumps, the URs which would have been downgraded, and the poor spins, would have killed her.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Irina's SP with a double lutz-double toe would have had her way behind. She may not have even made the final flight under COP.
    Who might have beaten her for the final flight though?

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Irina's SP with a double lutz-double toe would have had her way behind. She may not have even made the final flight under COP.
    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Who might have beaten her for the final flight though?
    No one -- in fact I could see Slutskaya actually ending up 4th rather than 5th in the SP. If Chen's lutz was downgraded (<< in today's rules, even more likely by 2004-2010 rules), then they'd have the same base mark for that element, Slutskaya would get -3 GOE for the double, and Chen maybe -1s and -2s. So not much advantage there.

    On the rest of the TES, and Skating Skills, I think Slutskaya had the advantage.

    So then the question is whether that point or two of GOE plus the rest of the PCS would be enough keep Chen ahead in the short.

  8. #48
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    While even Chen's landed jumps were weak by Nagano (in comparision to the other top skaters) none of her jumps was underotated enough in her short to be downgraded. Plus her PCS in the short would definitely be higher than Slutskaya. So while Irina would probably score higher on almost all the other elements Chen would still beat her in the short. Bonaly would beat Slutskaya in the short under COP, the combination difference alone would have already been enough. Under COP I think Bonaly also beats Chen in the short. I did not see all the others but I heard Malinina skated clean, and did a triple lutz and triple flip, so probably her too.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    No one -- in fact I could see Slutskaya actually ending up 4th rather than 5th in the SP. If Chen's lutz was downgraded (<< in today's rules, even more likely by 2004-2010 rules), then they'd have the same base mark for that element, Slutskaya would get -3 GOE for the double, and Chen maybe -1s and -2s. So not much advantage there.

    On the rest of the TES, and Skating Skills, I think Slutskaya had the advantage.

    So then the question is whether that point or two of GOE plus the rest of the PCS would be enough keep Chen ahead in the short.
    Even if Chen's lutz combo was ratified, Slutskaya could get a lot of the advantage back on the harder solo triple, higher GOEs due to more direct steps into the solo and variation on 2axel, and base mark and GOEs on the spins. Slutskaya's spins already had difficult variations in them. Chen's spins were simplistic and poorly done in comparison, and might have been short on revolution. Footwork goes to Slutskaya in terms of levels and execution. I don't remember either one's spiral sequence.

    Chen would likely have come out ahead in overall PCS though. If the judges judged by the criteria, Slutskaya really should come out ahead on SS, TR and PE (but obviously trailing in CH and IN).

    I could see Slutskaya and Chen quite neck and neck after the short, but significantly behind Kwan, Butyrskaya and Lipinski.

    I would probably have given the final spot of the final group to Liashenko. -3 on a lip, but otherwise everything was great and the program was complex and beautifully skated.

  10. #50
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    COP or Ordinals, it doesn't matter. They are both flawed judging systems. I think the flaws in COP would probably benefit MK more than Tara. By today's standards, Tara's skating is completely obsolete (small jumps, edge issues, URs, no flexibility).

  11. #51
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    tara jumps was very low-basically just got off the ground.
    however through the update versions of youtube on internet -they look better than what they really was.
    tara only did 5 jumps 1 jumping pass loop-loop=ratified-which shouldn't have been, edge call on lutz. other than than okay job. as far as artistry skills-was doable.
    michelle had 7 jumps 2 -triple lutz-toe, flip-toe, not 8 jumps her artistry, change of edge on jumps, spirals and change spin directions might added points -who knows,
    artistry-was good,

    irina in 98 had no artistry-her spins wasn't centered-all over the ice,
    so today back than can't compare.
    why--
    all skaters didn't plan programs for cop-they plan for 6.0's
    who knows what would have happened. skated like 6.0's in other words you fall, screw up big time you don't medal- unlike today-screw up big time you can still win and medal.
    different rules, different game plan.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Yes. There's no reward under IJS just for doing a spin in the opposite direction from the skater's usual spin direction. The reward is to spin in both directions in the same spin. That's one feature toward a higher level for that spin -- if there's also one other feature, the spin would earn level 2; if there are three or four features in total it would earn level 3 or 4.
    Even if what MK did was not exactly an IJS both-directions-spin, it at least shows that MK could spin in both directions and knowing her she likely would have cleaned it up by IJS standards if that's the system she was under.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    My opinions on the Lipinksi/Kwan Olympic showdown aren't formed by biased sentimental speeches spoken at induction ceremonies. Also, please do not assume that I would ever think everything Scott Hamilton has to say is Bible.
    I never said induction ceremonies or Scott Hamilton are the last word, but when multiple, high-ranking people make comments like they made, then it's obvious many others feel the same way as well, and that something fishy went on with the scoring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    Bonaly did not know how to skate between her jumps. She looked like she was skating on double runners. I saw no edge quality out there on her best nights. She telegraphed jumps from across the rink, stopped, braked, turned then launched herself into jumps landing in a jerky manner most of the time. She muscled every thing. She had some interesting artistic choices except for her attempt to copy Usova and Zhulin's Vivaldi "Four Season's" FD in one of her FS programs, even down to some of their movements which was laughable in the extreme. That being said-I did like watching Bonaly in exhibition.
    That Four Seasons program was awful. With the violins and jerky arm motions it was like watching the movie Psycho.

    Quote Originally Posted by millyskate View Post
    I clearly think of Tara as the better spinner, under COP it's all about getting the levels - not being elegant!
    If this is true, then how does someone like Alissa (obviously elegant) get so many points for artistry after bombing the jumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by query5 View Post
    tara jumps was very low-basically just got off the ground.
    however through the update versions of youtube on internet -they look better than what they really was.
    tara only did 5 jumps 1 jumping pass loop-loop=ratified-which shouldn't have been, edge call on lutz. other than than okay job. as far as artistry skills-was doable.
    michelle had 7 jumps 2 -triple lutz-toe, flip-toe, not 8 jumps her artistry, change of edge on jumps, spirals and change spin directions might added points -who knows,
    artistry-was good,
    As much as I don't like Tara's skating, her 3loop/3loop looked legit to me. Not sure about the lutz...

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by hydro View Post
    COP or Ordinals, it doesn't matter. They are both flawed judging systems. I think the flaws in COP would probably benefit MK more than Tara. By today's standards, Tara's skating is completely obsolete (small jumps, edge issues, URs, no flexibility).
    Michelle's jumps weren't that much bigger, if we get right down to it.

    Tara actually did a catchfoot camel, something I don't recall seeing from Michelle in a competitive program, so it's a toss up as to who was more flexible.

    It would have been fascinating to see what MK, Frank & Lori came up with if COP had been in place in the nineties.

    Under 6.0, it seemed that a good 3z was the glass ceiling. If you had one, you were taken seriously. But under COP, it seems to be skating skills, especially speed.

    Ice coverage was one area that Tara really took it to Michelle in Nagano, so it would be interesting to see the marks if COP had been in effect.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    Tara actually did a catchfoot camel, something I don't recall seeing from Michelle in a competitive program, so it's a toss up as to who was more flexible.
    Kwan's Lamente d'Ariane FS included a clockwise catchfoot camel.
    Last edited by falling_dance; 03-23-2012 at 01:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    Kwan's Lamente d'Ariane FS included a clockwise catchfoot camel.
    The earlier version of Song of the Black Swan also featured a catchfoot camel.

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