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  1. #41
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    "Stand Your Ground" doesn't work as a defense if you're the aggressor and the police said back off. If he was able to legally buy a firearm (has anyone proven he actually is ALLOWED to have a gun and didn't buy one illegally?) because he got his rights restored despite being a convicted felon, that's an excellent argument for people with felony convictions not getting their rights back. (Again, not that it stops them-you have to have a permit for a handgun here, which reminds me must get on that, but that doesn't stop the meth cookers or the gang bangers from getting as many as they want with whatever dubious modifications they want to make, as part of being a criminal is that you don't obey laws in the first place...but it DOES add another felony charge when they arrest you for something else, anyway...)

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4rkidz View Post
    There is a petition going around on facebook about this that I signed.
    Also here
    http://www.change.org/petitions/pros...trayvon-martin

    George Zimmerman, the self-appointed neighborhood watchman who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old Florida high school student, last month blatantly violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, ABC News has learned.

    The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."
    On the tapes, Zimmerman, claiming Martin looked intoxicated, says he saw the teenager cut through from the main street in the tidy Retreat at Twin Lakes, onto a path between two blocks of townhouses, and decided to gave chase. Zimmerman told a police dispatcher, "These a**holes, they always get away"

    Dispatcher: "Are you following him?"

    Zimmerman: "Yes."

    Dispatcher: "OK, we don't need you to do that."
    Law enforcement expert Rod Wheeler, who listened to the tapes, told ABC News that Zimmerman, not Martin, sounded intoxicated in the police recordings of the 911 calls.

    "When I listened to the 911 tape, the first thing that came to my mind is this guy sounds intoxicated. Notice how he's slurring his words. We as trained law enforcement officers, we know how to listen for that right away, and I think that's going to be an important element of this entire investigation," Wheeler said.

    According to Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch Program, there are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group -- another fact the police were not aware of at the time of the incident.
    (all bolding mine)

    http://news.yahoo.com/neighborhood-w...-abc-news.html

    And since he has made nearly 50 calls 911 recently about black people who were acting "suspiciously," it seems to me this guy was on a power trip out to get someone and wasn't gonna stop until he succeeded. It's a travesty that he hasn't been charged.

  3. #43
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    I'am afraid these Cops have botched this investigation.The evidence to indict, let alone convict, may not be there as they released Zimmerman without any testing of his gun nor him, incompetent, do-nothing idiots I hope they get exposed for what they are..

  4. #44
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    I know some have said the Sanford police botched the investigation, but to me it looks like a deliberate cover-up. I used to work with local police neighborhood watch groups, and the police knew all the registered groups and contact persons. For the Sanford police to say now they just took Zimmerman at his word about being the head of the neighborhood watch group that in fact didn't exist defies credulity. Also it's standard procedure for local police to test shooters of any sort, including those claiming self-defense, for alcohol and/or drugs. Yet conveniently, this also was not done. The police had the tapes where Zimmerman was expressly told *not* to follow Martin, yet repeatedly refused to release that information or the tapes. The police not only didn't question all those witnesses who called in to 911, they actually changed the witness statements of those they did interview to make it sound like Zimmerman was being attacked.

    That isn't botching an investigation, that's covering up a crime--or in this case, murder.

  5. #45
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    I dont know about a cover up agalisgv. I'm not jumping into that right now as there are so many details coming out but, police simply DO NOT allow citizens to murder each other so the STINK level on this particular case is way up there. Some says there's a smell of Emit Till, Emit Till in the 21st century?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by hydro View Post
    This whole thing is disgusting. How is it possible in the US to run a child down with a gun, murder him in cold blood, and walk away with the police enabling the crime.

    I don't even with whom I'm more outraged with. The delusional Zimmerman walking free, the media ignoring this issue because Martin isn't a 13-year-old-white girl, or the local police that basically let Zimmerman walk free and gave him a "self-defense" excuse to commit murder.

    This is what gun culture creates, these kinds of vigilantes that think they are above the law. The NRA should be ashamed of themselves for lobbying for such absurd laws as this "stand your ground" BS.

    At least the story is starting to get picked up, has anyone been able to location Zimmerman? Or has he flown the coop?
    I cannot even imagine how outraged I would feel if I were the family of this boy. It is bad enough not even knowing them, but if this were my son, I do not even know what I would do. Thank goodness they have convened a grand jury at least.
    I think I will have a snack and take a nap before I eat and go to sleep.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    I know some have said the Sanford police botched the investigation, but to me it looks like a deliberate cover-up. I used to work with local police neighborhood watch groups, and the police knew all the registered groups and contact persons. For the Sanford police to say now they just took Zimmerman at his word about being the head of the neighborhood watch group that in fact didn't exist defies credulity. Also it's standard procedure for local police to test shooters of any sort, including those claiming self-defense, for alcohol and/or drugs. Yet conveniently, this also was not done. The police had the tapes where Zimmerman was expressly told *not* to follow Martin, yet repeatedly refused to release that information or the tapes. The police not only didn't question all those witnesses who called in to 911, they actually changed the witness statements of those they did interview to make it sound like Zimmerman was being attacked.

    That isn't botching an investigation, that's covering up a crime--or in this case, murder.
    I think I am leaning this way as well, but what's the motivation for the cover up?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by hydro View Post
    the media ignoring this issue because Martin isn't a 13-year-old-white girl,
    The only media that's been ignoring this story (as much as they can) is Fox News. CNN and others have covered it extensively.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    The only media that's been ignoring this story (as much as they can) is Fox News. CNN and others have covered it extensively.
    You're right -- I guess my view is that they ignored it immediately after the murder, but coverage has indeed been wide at this point. I heard about the story two weeks ago, but it's now gaining a lot of traction.

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    The one question I haven't seen asked is this:

    This occurred in a gated community in Florida. The gated communities that I am famiiar with in FL have gate guards, and tall walls/fences completely enclosing them. If someone coming from outside wants to come in, whether on foot or not, he has to talk to the gate guard, and can only get in if:

    1. He has identification as a resident.
    Or
    2. A resident has called the gate and told them that so-and-so should be allowed through the gate, and the non-resident has ID that he is, in fact "so and so"

    First, is the Sanford gated community like that?

    And if so, why didn't Zimmerman call the gate and ask whether a properly authorized kid came through it?

    In fact, why the police wouldn't find it very fishy boggles my mind. The point of living in a gated community is so you don't need a Neighborhood Watch.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilJLeonard View Post
    ETA: I think that this thread may actually belong in PI.
    My thought exactly.

    The sad thing is nothing will bring back the young man who lost his life. Such a waste.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    First, is the Sanford gated community like that?
    No.

    (That's what I read anyway. That there was no control at the gate.)
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  13. #53
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    Unfortunately, Trayvon Martin isn't the first and won't be the last.

  14. #54
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    Friends of ours live in a gated community in Texas and they just give us the code to punch in to open the gates. No security guard and it's a pretty upscale community.
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  15. #55

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    We have friends in several Del Webb communities, and we have to have the fact that we are coming called ahead of time to get past the guard.

    Which is why I asked.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    We have friends in several Del Webb communities, and we have to have the fact that we are coming called ahead of time to get past the guard.

    Which is why I asked.
    Yeah, I think it varies a lot.
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  17. #57
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    There's a pretty good overview of how the events of Trayvon Martin's murder unfolded at MotherJones (which is a site I don't normally visit), that I've linked underneath the bullet points.

    It provides chronological timeline, has the audio of several key 911 calls, and several updates as new information has come to light.

    There is also a Primer that appears to be well-organized and clarifies several points and information that have been confusing, conflicting, mixed up, overlapped, or disjointed as reports and updates were flooding in both immediately after the shooting as well as in the days that followed. These include:

    - the actions of the local PD,
    - Fla's Self-Defense and Stand Your Ground Laws and if they're key to this case,
    - what happened to Trayvon,
    - how the police handled Zimmerman following the shooting,
    - The Sanford PD's history how it could affect this case
    - Public reaction
    - Similar cases in this jurisdiction's past
    - potential Federal involvement

    They Trayvon Martin Killing, Explained

    I'm only now listening to the audio of the 911 calls (though I cannot quite bring myself to listen to the ones that have who is allleged to be Martin screaming in terror in the final seconds before he was shot ).

    In the initial 911 call Zimmerman made, in which he claims that Martin appears to be on drugs (I guess he had more than twice the legal level of Skittles and/or Arizona Iced Tea in his bloodstream). The irony is that Zimmerman himself, sounds like he's the one who isn't sober (I'd be interested if anyone else reached that same conclusion).

    Considering that FL law requires that a person who has shot someone be tested for being under the influence of alcohol or drugs, it seems mighty hinky that the Sanford PD never even attempted to do this with Zimmerman (in addition to the other SOP measures they conveniently overlooked or outright chose not to do WRT Zimmerman.

    ...Thoughts?

  18. #58
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    Hard to imagine a situation in which Zimmerman had reason to believe that his life was in danger.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by hydro View Post
    I think I am leaning this way as well, but what's the motivation for the cover up?
    Some background on the Sanford police department. The current Sanford police chief, Bill Lee, recently took over in response to discriminatory investigations by the police involving black crime victims.
    Lee’s predecessor, Brian Tooley, was forced from office last year following a scandal involving a lieutenant’s son who was captured on video attacking a homeless black man. Police officers reportedly questioned him but did not arrest him. The officer’s son, Justin Collison, 21, later turned himself in after the video surfaced on YouTube and was charged in the attack.

    Collison's family paid an undisclosed sum to the homeless man, Sherman Ware, and Ware asked prosecutors to drop the case. They didn't, and Collison eventually pleaded no contest and received probation, according to the Orlando Sentinel.

    But the 2005 killing of a black teenager, Travares McGill, by two white security guards, one the son of a Sanford Police officer, drove city race relations to a modern low, according to some black residents.

    Early one summer morning, security guards Patrick Swofford and Bryan Ansley saw McGill dropping off a group of friends in the parking lot of the apartment complex they were hired to guard, according to published reports. They claimed McGill tried to run them down, and both fired, later claiming self-defense. McGill was pronounced dead at the scene. Swofford was a police department volunteer and Ansley is the son of a former veteran of the force.

    The pair was arrested and charged, Swofford with manslaughter and Ansley with firing into an occupied vehicle. But a judge later cited lack of evidence and dismissed both cases. According to autopsy reports, McGill suffered fatal gunshot wounds to the back, and it was unclear if the pair was in danger.

    “People are outraged because they never recovered from the last shooting, or recovered from the beating a year or so ago with the policeman’s son,” said Turner. “All of these things are escalating and simmering, and it’s going to reach a point where it’s going to explode.”
    That's why I think the police wanted this to just go away, and did what they could to accomplish that.

    Another tidbit:
    Lee told the Orlando Sentinel in June that, “I hope to focus on developing partnerships with the community and continuing what they've started in their efforts of community policing: working in areas that will enable an officer to get to know the community he's working in; who in that community is not supposed to be there; work together with the community to identify problems.”
    This is what I was talking about earlier. These police-community partnerships are carefully cultivated so police know the neighborhood watch groups well--particularly the folk in charge. There's just no way IMO the police could not have known there was no neighborhood watch group and that Zimmerman wasn't the leader. Also, the cops told the Martin family that Zimmerman had a completely clean record. Again, it defies credulity the police wouldn't have known Zimmerman attacked a cop, or would not have done even a basic background check. The police told the Martin family Zimmerman was sitting in his truck and attacked from behind by Martin, despite Zimmerman saying on tape he was following Martin.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1345868.html

    The last thing I'll say is apparently Zimmerman shot Martin twice, with a pause in between. After the first shot, Martin was still alive and begging for help. The second shot to me indicates premeditation--Zimmerman was trying to kill him at that point. And that's how I think he should be charged.

  20. #60
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    Agal, from reading your posts, I think you and I are posting similar items, just from differnt websites.

    We've had our differences, to be sure, and we rarely agree on most topics, but it seems that with regard to the tragic and senseless death of Martin, along with the actions of George Zimerman and the questionable and deplorable way in which the local LEOs chose to handle it, we share many of the same concerns and suspicions about the Sanford Police Department, including not only their incompetence, but having a gut feeling that there is a cover-up going on.

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