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  1. #81

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    Wire-transfers from Piseev's Alfa-Bank account "don't hurt" to determine favorites.
    Dick Button Historical Quote of the Month: "Good for you, Lucinda Ruh!"

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    I've always thought that the judging system should NOT have been changed but the JUDGES.
    They are too set in their ways.
    Who knows what goes on in their heads sometimes.
    Very little............................................ ...

    The protocols would be the place to answer that.
    ....as well as becoming a "student of CoP."
    It's complicated, and sometimes frustrating....believe me, I know.

    You are still wistfully pining for the days of 6.0 ....talk about set in your ways!

    -

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    I've always thought that the judging system should NOT have been changed but the JUDGES.
    They are too set in their ways.
    Who knows what goes on in their heads sometimes.
    Very little............................................ ...
    I agree and as a longtime fan also know some of these judges and officials would rather die than give up their little power fiefdoms.

    But why only single out judges?

    Cincuanta along with alot of the big ISU brass presided over SLC as well as the formerly scandalous discipline known as Ice Dancing.

    Changing the system changed very little as long as so many of the same culprits remained in place.

    This seems to be a no-brainer to me....yet others are silly enough to assume that changing the scoring system magically made all the known cheaters/manipulators honest players.

    How odd!
    Last edited by MrLucky; 03-16-2012 at 03:47 PM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Are you for real? All the judges are too set in their ways and they all have diminished mental faculties?

    Seems like there is someone who has very little going on in their heads and it ain't the judges.
    Did I say diminished mental faculties?. No. I meant very little in the way of being open to skaters who are not usually the judges favourites moving up.
    Why insult me instead of asking me to explain what I wrote?.
    IMO judges are very set in their ways. I never said I wanted the 6.0 system back did I?. I think NOW it works quite well but I still think the judges pre-judge a lot.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    Did I say diminished mental faculties?. No. I meant very little in the way of being open to skaters who are not usually the judges favourites moving up.
    You said:

    Who knows what goes on in their heads sometimes.
    Very little............................................ ...
    So you're not saying the judges are stupid then?

    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    Why insult me instead of asking me to explain what I wrote?.
    Because when you write rubbish that tars every single skating judge in the world with the same brush you deserve to be called out on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    IMO judges are very set in their ways. I never said I wanted the 6.0 system back did I?. I think NOW it works quite well but I still think the judges pre-judge a lot.
    And if you every became a judge ( at the thought), you'd be completely unbiased of course.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    You said:



    So you're not saying the judges are stupid then?



    Because when you write rubbish that tars every single skating judge in the world with the same brush you deserve to be called out on it.



    And if you every became a judge ( at the thought), you'd be completely unbiased of course.
    Did I say the judges were STUPID?. Did I use that word?.
    Did I say I want to become a judge?.
    You need to grow up & stop making more of something than there is.

  7. #87

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    If the posters here can't agree on who the favorites are, why does anyone assume that the judges (who, contrary to apparently public belief, are human and individuals, not one giant amorphous Talkin Head) do?
    I'd rather be thought of as absolutely ridiculous than as absolutely boring.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    Did I say the judges were STUPID?. Did I use that word?.
    You said there was very little going on in their minds. I just like to summarise things up in one word when I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    Did I say I want to become a judge?.
    Well you seem to think you know a whole lot more about judging figure skating than they do so you really are missing your calling.

    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    You need to grow up & stop making more of something than there is.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    You said there was very little going on in their minds. I just like to summarise things up in one word when I can.



    Well you seem to think you know a whole lot more about judging figure skating than they do so you really are missing your calling.



    True

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    The skater achieves a base value (determined by the technical panel, not the judges) for being able to rotate a certain number of times in the air from a certain take off. That skill is "rewarded" in the base value, not the fall. The fall/butt slide itself is penalized (by the tech panel with a 1 point deduction and the judges with a 3 step reduction in GOE). I understand what you were trying to get at, and happen to agree that difficult jumps (particularly quads) with falls should probably not get as many points as they currently do, but the way you worded it, that "judges apparently love/reward butts sliding across the ice" is just false. The technical panel just assigns the base value based on what was attempted and to what degree it was completed, whether they "liked" it or not, and they don't have any say in how many points that is worth. Then the judges penalize the fall in the GOE. As far as I've seen, the technical panel and judges have been following these rules.

    The degree to which falls should be reflected in the PCS is up for debate (as are what the point values of the elements should be depending on the GOE) but the judges would not reward falls in the PCS.
    I can agree with most of this post since part of it is simply stating the "rules".

    Here is a question: more than one skater - Jeremy comes to mind -has said adding a quad to your program automatically increases the PCS.

    A skater landing a quad or even falling on a quad often gets a boost in their PCS.

    I am curious why this happens as I can't find it in the rules.

    I chalk it up to the culture of reputation scoring - which IMO never changed much when the new scoring system was introduced.

    A butt slide might get penalized according the the tech rules but does it really matter if the PCS scores are boosted enough to carry a skater through an off night?

    A real flaw is the difference of opinion we see at times from the tech panel and the judges. In the NFL if a referree signals a TD but then gets overruled by instant replay there are no points awarded.

    What would be the point to having instant replay if it didn't determine the outcome of a play?

    I see a lack of logic when the tech panel makes one call only to have it ignored by judges awarding +GOE on a jump that received a downgrade.

    Not sport, just a free-for-all with frequently puzzling scores.

    Is it acceptable for a skater to have a jump or combo jump downgraded by the tech panel yet to still receive +GOE from certain judges?

    Did the skater manage to pull off a a really good but flawed jump?

    If the micro management of the IJS is ever going to work and gain back the public some consistency and better logic will be required.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    I can agree with most of this post since part of it is simply stating the "rules".

    Here is a question: more than one skater - Jeremy comes to mind -has said adding a quad to your program automatically increases the PCS.

    A skater landing a quad or even falling on a quad often gets a boost in their PCS.

    I am curious why this happens as I can't find it in the rules.

    I chalk it up to the culture of reputation scoring - which IMO never changed much when the new scoring system was introduced.

    A butt slide might get penalized according the the tech rules but does it really matter if the PCS scores are boosted enough to carry a skater through an off night?

    A real flaw is the difference of opinion we see at times from the tech panel and the judges. In the NFL if a referree signals a TD but then gets overruled by instant replay there are no points awarded.

    What would be the point to having instant replay if it didn't determine the outcome of a play?

    I see a lack of logic when the tech panel makes one call only to have it ignored by judges awarding +GOE on a jump that received a downgrade.

    Not sport, just a free-for-all with frequently puzzling scores.

    Is it acceptable for a skater to have a jump or combo jump downgraded by the tech panel yet to still receive +GOE from certain judges?

    Did the skater manage to pull off a a really good but flawed jump?

    If the micro management of the IJS is ever going to work and gain back the public some consistency and better logic will be required.
    Because in the NFL it's either a touchdown or not, there are no points for takeoff, position in the air, landing, technique or anything else -- it's one thing or the other. In figure skating, a there are multiple steps that get evaluated and that's why someone can still get points even when they fall. Please, read what other posters have so eloquently written about how things are marked in skating and stop trying to compare it to a sport that is yes/no.
    Crazy about sports!

  12. #92
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    This thread
    Lead me not into temptation. I can find it, and eat it, all by myself.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    Because in the NFL it's either a touchdown or not, there are no points for takeoff, position in the air, landing, technique or anything else -- it's one thing or the other. In figure skating, a there are multiple steps that get evaluated and that's why someone can still get points even when they fall. Please, read what other posters have so eloquently written about how things are marked in skating and stop trying to compare it to a sport that is yes/no.
    OK, if you insist NFL expert.

    Sorry, but football is not anywhere NEAR as cut and dry as your statements.

    One foot in, one foot out, was he shoved, ,,,,,was there clear possesion, etc. becomes judges decisions.....was the knee down before .......yada, yada,

    Fortunately the NFL uses replay and replay is the final word , unlike skating where a tech caller can call a jump short or call a wrong edge,////////but somehow the judges can ignore the tech panel call and reward +GOE.......YIKES!!

    Do you have even the slightest idea of fairness in "sports" ??

    If so you would know how odd your post seems to me......

    The biggest difference between America's #1 sport (football) and it's biggest fading sport (skating) is the clarity of the calls.

    From day one, the NFL decided FANS must see the same replay tape the officials see.

    Why is it the EXACT OPPOSITE in figure skating?

    Things are hidden for a reason......
    Last edited by MrLucky; 03-17-2012 at 08:14 PM.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by beepbeep View Post
    This thread
    Brasilian expertise in figure skating can NOT be denied :

    But apparently you are also an expert on NFL rules?

    Somehow I highly doubt your credibilty on this point.

    Good luck with your preparations for the WC......
    Last edited by MrLucky; 03-17-2012 at 08:19 PM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    OK, if you insist NFL expert.

    Sorry, but football is not anywhere NEAR as cut and dry as your statements.

    One foot in, one foot out, was he shoved, ,,,,,was there clear possesion, etc. becomes judges decisions.....was the knee down before .......yada, yada,

    Fortunately the NFL uses replay and replay is the final word , unlike skating where a tech caller can call a jump short or call a wrong edge,////////but somehow the judges can ignore the tech panel call and reward +GOE.......YIKES!!

    Do you have even the slightest idea of fairness in "sports" ??

    If so you would know how odd your post seems to me......

    The biggest difference between America's #1 sport (football) and it's biggest fading sport (skating) is the clarity of the calls.

    From day one, the NFL decided FANS must see the same replay tape the officials see.

    Why is it the EXACT OPPOSITE in figure skating?

    Things are hidden for a reason......
    Maybe judges/tech panel should take more that 3 minutes to score the skaters.....would the fans like that?

    Also judges/refs don't always get it right in skating or football and the benefit of the doubt will always go the skater/football team. Refs have made many mistakes that fans still talk about years later, no sport that uses judges/refs or umpires have clear cut calls, it's not possible because they are human.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    The biggest difference between America's #1 sport (football) and it's biggest fading sport (skating) is the clarity of the calls.
    As a fan of both football and FS (not an expert in each), I won't waste this thread's time by listing all the difference between the two sports.
    You're entitled to your opinion, but don't forget the frequency of the competitions of NFL vs. FS.
    Football fans get literally hundreds of games each season, with 60 minutes of playing time and dozens of plays each game.
    The chances to reinforce the rules and nuances of officiating in the minds of fans are endless.
    Football is a full contact sport based on a representation of battle. Aesthetics does not play a role.
    That's why a team can appear to play poorly but still win....it's called "winning ugly".

    Maybe the biggest difference between football and FS is the fans ...
    ...I've noticed that alcohol consumption plays a big role in football fans' devotion to their sport.. .



    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    others are silly enough to assume that changing the scoring system magically made all the known cheaters/manipulators honest
    And in the spirit of your own words, you'll provide the evidence (instant replay) of their cheating/manipulation??
    How about listing some names if they're "known".....



    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by beepbeep View Post
    This thread
    Brasilian expertise in figure skating can NOT be denied.But apparently you are also an expert on NFL rules?

    Professordeb (Canadian) offered the football analogy, not our Brasilian member.

    If you can't keep up, you'll have to sit in the corner with the kiddies...


    -
    Last edited by geod2; 03-17-2012 at 09:41 PM.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by geod2 View Post
    As a fan of both football and FS (not an expert in each), I won't waste this thread's time by listing all the difference between the two sports.
    You're entitled to your opinion, but don't forget the frequency of the competitions of NFL vs. FS.
    Football fans get literally hundreds of games each seasons, with 60 minutes of playing time and dozens of plays each game.
    The chance to reinforce the rules and nuances of officiating in the minds of fans is endless.
    Football is a full contact sport game based on a representation of battle. Aesthetics does not play a role.
    That's why a team can appear to play poorly but still win....it's called "winning ugly".


    And in the spirit of your own words, you'll provide the evidence (instant replay) of their cheating/manipulation??
    How about listing some names if they're "known".....




    Professordeb (Canadian) offered the football analogy, not our Brasilian member.
    If you can't keep up, you'll have to sit in the corner with the kiddies...

    -
    Your post makes no sense to me at all.

    It's like you have no knowledge of sports, the history of figure skating and are confused enough to think ISU shares instant replays with fans, which they DON'T!

    Yet you feel some sort of indigninty that I see the discipline or contest/game that is figure skating as anything more than a beauty pageant.

    I am sure I have watched long before you were born and see little differnce in the scoring system - indeed to me skating is still more pageant than sport.

    When the tech panel actually has the authority by their calls to determine a score (and ISU has the "balls/INTEGRITY" to share the replay that determined such calls I will begin to think of CoP skating as a sport.

    For now I can't take it seriously although I do enjoy a pageant as much as the next fellow from my generation.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    I am sure I have watched long before you were born and see little differnce in the scoring system -

    For now I can't take it seriously although I do enjoy a pageant as much as the next fellow from my generation.
    I am 59. Too bad for you if you watched before I was born...

    Enjoy figure skating however you like!

    -
    Last edited by geod2; 03-17-2012 at 09:52 PM. Reason: typo

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by geod2 View Post
    I am 59. Too bad for you if you watched before I was born...

    Enjoy figure skating however however you like!

    -
    Thankyou and I wish the same to you.

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    I see a lack of logic when the tech panel makes one call only to have it ignored by judges awarding +GOE on a jump that received a downgrade.
    Judges judge what they see. If a judge thinks that a jump is not downgraded then they are meant to mark accordingly and give the benefit of doubt to the skater. They do not have access to the slow motion replay that the technical panel have.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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