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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    Butts sliding across the ice are never rewarded. They are penalized with a 1 point deduction, and a required negative GOE for the element (if they occur on an element).
    True. The argument that I understand many posters to be making it is whether such deductions and/or negative GOE are sufficiently punitive in contrast with situations where falls and butt slides do not occur.

    Five different people could give six different perspectives regarding that argument - which one is "right"?
    "Skating fans are not a patient bunch." Dragonlady

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by VALuvsMKwan View Post
    True. The argument that I understand many posters to be making it is whether such deductions and/or negative GOE are sufficiently punitive in contrast with situations where falls and butt slides do not occur.

    Five different people could give six different perspectives regarding that argument - which one is "right"?
    Me!

    Yes, I do understand that debate and assume that is what the poster meant, but it annoys me when people use misleading statements to try to argue their point of view.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    OMG!!!! Plushy has an affair with his own wife? And with Marton and Dima Bilan too?
    I also had an affair with Plushenko.
    It was boring. All he did was talk about himself

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    Butts sliding across the ice are never rewarded. They are penalized with a 1 point deduction, and a required negative GOE for the element (if they occur on an element).

    Are you saying a 4T that ends with a butt slide is never rewarded?

    Maybe it depends on our idea of "rewarded."

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    Are you saying a 4T that ends with a butt slide is never rewarded?

    Maybe it depends on our idea of "rewarded."
    Perhaps but a fall doesn't mean an automatic -3 just a GOE in the negative.

    Who got a positive GOE on a 4T that they fell on?

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    Are you saying a 4T that ends with a butt slide is never rewarded?

    Maybe it depends on our idea of "rewarded."
    The skater achieves a base value (determined by the technical panel, not the judges) for being able to rotate a certain number of times in the air from a certain take off. That skill is "rewarded" in the base value, not the fall. The fall/butt slide itself is penalized (by the tech panel with a 1 point deduction and the judges with a 3 step reduction in GOE). I understand what you were trying to get at, and happen to agree that difficult jumps (particularly quads) with falls should probably not get as many points as they currently do, but the way you worded it, that "judges apparently love/reward butts sliding across the ice" is just false. The technical panel just assigns the base value based on what was attempted and to what degree it was completed, whether they "liked" it or not, and they don't have any say in how many points that is worth. Then the judges penalize the fall in the GOE. As far as I've seen, the technical panel and judges have been following these rules.

    The degree to which falls should be reflected in the PCS is up for debate (as are what the point values of the elements should be depending on the GOE) but the judges would not reward falls in the PCS.

  7. #67
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    Some people don't seem to get it, or refuse to accept it, that if a jump is FULLY ROTATED, partial marks will be given even with a fall. "Oh he fell, why did he still get the marks" or "Oh he fell, that jump should be zero" blah blah blah will not going to work.

    I think a fall on a quad, for example, could get a very big penalty. It really depends on the fall. If the same jump is landed perfectly, it will be rewarded with full mark, plus up to +3GOE. If it's a fall, only partial mark is rewarded, plus up to -3GOE. So the swing is 6+ difference. To me, that's alot already.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by VALuvsMKwan View Post
    True. The argument that I understand many posters to be making it is whether such deductions and/or negative GOE are sufficiently punitive in contrast with situations where falls and butt slides do not occur.

    Five different people could give six different perspectives regarding that argument - which one is "right"?
    I don't think there can ever be a definitive answer to this question, because

    -all falls are not equal (in severity, in how they affect the point value of the element if in fact they occur on an element, in how they affect the aesthetic impact of the program as a whole)

    -the difference in overall quality between a skater who falls and the next-best skater who doesn't fall can vary significantly

    -and all experts (if we include dedicated fans in addition to officials) are not equally bothered in principle by falls

    So I don't think there's any way to write rules in advance that will guarantee that skaters who fall, or fall in particular ways or particular numbers of times, will always place lower than if they didn't fall.

    At best, the rules can standardize specific penalties for falls and allow for additional penalties (i.e., in PCS) at the judges' individual discretion.

  9. #69

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    Watch Patick Chan's short program at 4 CC's his quad - was it a fall? The definition is supposed to be if a hand is down but the skater could have stayed up without the hand it is not a fall. As far as I can see, hand or no hand it was a fall. Slow motion or regular speed. He was given -3 from the judges but no fall from the Tech Panel. There is always playing room from judges or tech panel - you just hope that sometime it goes in your favor.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by gingercat View Post
    Watch Patick Chan's short program at 4 CC's his quad - was it a fall? The definition is supposed to be if a hand is down but the skater could have stayed up without the hand it is not a fall. As far as I can see, hand or no hand it was a fall. Slow motion or regular speed. He was given -3 from the judges but no fall from the Tech Panel. There is always playing room from judges or tech panel - you just hope that sometime it goes in your favor.
    -3 in GOE by the judges doesn't aways mean a fall on an element happened.

    Skaters put their hands down to prevent a fall they know is going to happen and usually they touch the ice just enough to correct the landing, but if they could have landed the jump they wouldn't have put their hand down in the first place.

  11. #71

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    I originally posted this in another thread in the Trash Can (what gingercat described above):
    Did Chan Fall in the [4 Continents] Short Program?

    I re-watched this moment on video and the "fall" is not as obvious as pictured in the 2 still photos.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    I think the way Kostner skates is part of her charm. Sometimes she looks like she is making it up as she goes (I like that).
    Lepisto winning Bronze in 2010 still makes me cross. I like Lepisto & think she is very nice to watch but I watched the top four the other day & she fell apart yet Miki skated clean. It was a bad decision IMO.
    On the subject of Plushenko being judges favourite, I have watched him since the very start of his career & being a Yagudin fan I guess in the the early day's I was quite upset when the judges held him up.
    Year's later I can now watch him & understand what an amazing talent he is.
    BUT the BIG problem I have with Plushenko is how he treats ISU skating.
    He is like an unfaithful husband who goes off & has affairs with other women (Skating shows, media) then when he get's bored or wants to raise his profile again (In case we forget him) he returns. Skates okay, wins (Comes back to the loyal wife) then leaves again.
    Plushenko needs skating, skating does not need Plushenko.
    I WANT A DIVORCE
    I think Plushenko wants to stay in competitive skating, but his knees say no. Staying active in shows is less taxing. He would probably get big appearance fees to skate in ISU eligible competition.

    I find him entertaining, even when his jumps are crooked and he windmills his arms. But as a husband - too high maintenance

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    -3 in GOE by the judges doesn't aways mean a fall on an element happened.

    Skaters put their hands down to prevent a fall they know is going to happen and usually they touch the ice just enough to correct the landing, but if they could have landed the jump they wouldn't have put their hand down in the first place.
    Yes, I understand in this instance, since the Tech panel did not give a fall to the skater that the judges gave -3 GOE because the poor execution of the jump. Thanks

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    -3 in GOE by the judges doesn't aways mean a fall on an element happened.

    Skaters put their hands down to prevent a fall they know is going to happen and usually they touch the ice just enough to correct the landing, but if they could have landed the jump they wouldn't have put their hand down in the first place.
    Also a skater can do enough that the tally of deductions can equal a -3.

    With a skater like Chan, their technique is usually so good on an element like the quad that without a fall it would have been +2 to start with. With the fall a judge could justify only going to a -1 rather than -3. People complaining that certain skaters get held up on GOEs may not be considering that the element was pretty good to start with and the judges are still giving credit to the positive aspects of an element and then apply the deduction.

    Because when they don't make mistakes they blow every other competitor out of the water.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    I originally posted this in another thread in the Trash Can (what gingercat described above):
    Did Chan Fall in the [4 Continents] Short Program?

    I re-watched this moment on video and the "fall" is not as obvious as pictured in the 2 still photos.
    When people "CSI" a picture to prove something, it shows desperation. I dare to say that if it was another skater instead of Chan, nobody would have cared.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Also a skater can do enough that the tally of deductions can equal a -3.

    With a skater like Chan, their technique is usually so good on an element like the quad that without a fall it would have been +2 to start with. With the fall a judge could justify only going to a -1 rather than -3. People complaining that certain skaters get held up on GOEs may not be considering that the element was pretty good to start with and the judges are still giving credit to the positive aspects of an element and then apply the deduction.

    Because when they don't make mistakes they blow every other competitor out of the water.
    That's why I love watching Kurt/Tracy's commentary. They usually point out the difficulties that non experts, such as me, won't be able to tell. Such has the 4CC LP:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLFPKdAL5hA
    Last edited by jettasian; 03-16-2012 at 03:27 AM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by gingercat View Post
    Watch Patick Chan's short program at 4 CC's his quad - was it a fall? The definition is supposed to be if a hand is down but the skater could have stayed up without the hand it is not a fall. As far as I can see, hand or no hand it was a fall. Slow motion or regular speed. He was given -3 from the judges but no fall from the Tech Panel. There is always playing room from judges or tech panel - you just hope that sometime it goes in your favor.
    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    -3 in GOE by the judges doesn't aways mean a fall on an element happened.
    Julieann is correct that a -3GOE doesn't always mean that the skater "fell" on the element. In this case, beyond the errors on the landing of the 4T, there's another major problem: Chan performed the 4T as the "solo jump out of steps" and, um, there's no steps. In a short program, that 4T is clearly -3GOE for the combination of no steps and landing errors. (This was the first time that I've watched Chan this season. Does he typically do the combo on the 4T and do the 3Lz as the solo jump out of steps?)

    I agree with Sylvia that the "fall" is not obvious on video, at least youtube video on my computer screen. If I'm spatially oriented correctly, I believe the "fall" would have been even more difficult to visualize from the camera angle used by the technical panel, which would have looked at Chan straight-on, not from the side, and I think the percentage of weight on his hands would have been much more obvious from the side than looking straight at him.

    (For those who aren't familiar with the REVIEW procedures used by the technical panel, the technical panel can only review video from a single camera; at U.S. Nationals and internationals, this camera is mounted on the podium right by the tech panel. The idea is that the camera replicates the point-of-view of the tech panel, so if an edge change, fall, etc. wasn't visible from their angle, video isn't providing another opinion: it's simply allowing the tech panel to literally re-view what they saw the first time. The image captured by this camera is of lower quality than the TV cameras in the area, so that's a contributing factor, too. Finally, "falls" can only be reviewed in real time - no slow motion - and two of the three "calling" members of the technical panel (i.e., the Technical Specialist, Assistant Technical Specialist, and Technical Controller) must agree that it was a "fall;" Video, Data, Accountant, and Technical Accountant/Systems Specialist don't get to vote, frequently to the chagrin of Video. And no matter how much she wants to contribute, the lady announcing the skaters and playing the CDs doesn't get to vote either. Oh wait, I think I'm mixing up Podunk Open and 4CCs... Well, the announcer at 4CCs also doesn't get a vote, but I suspect she didn't try. )

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by love_skate2011 View Post
    Judges Favorites:

    - Patrick Chan
    - Kim Yuna
    - Carolina Kostner
    - Jason Brown
    - Adelina Sotnikova
    - Julia Lipnitskaya
    - Michelle Kwan
    I dont agree at all on Sotnikova. I have never seen her overscored, in fact she is often scored harshly relative to some of the other young Russians.

  18. #78

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    As I have been taught, "a judge is supposed to judge what is in front of them on the day and not the reputation of a skater". A very difficult task, but it would wonderful to see this happen more often.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by gingercat View Post
    As I have been taught, "a judge is supposed to judge what is in front of them on the day and not the reputation of a skater". A very difficult task, but it would wonderful to see this happen more often.
    I've always thought that the judging system should NOT have been changed but the JUDGES.
    They are too set in their ways.
    Who knows what goes on in their heads sometimes.
    Very little............................................ ...

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    I've always thought that the judging system should NOT have been changed but the JUDGES.
    They are too set in their ways.
    Who knows what goes on in their heads sometimes.
    Very little............................................ ...
    Are you for real? All the judges are too set in their ways and they all have diminished mental faculties?

    Seems like there is someone who has very little going on in their heads and it ain't the judges.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

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