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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    People, please. Some of you sound like you actually believe the judging is always fair and never subjective

    Yes, those skaters mentioned do skate well. But so do some others and yet sometimes we feel it's the wrong one on top of the podium. This is when judges play favourites.
    So then the question is actually "Who are skaters that get held up", not who are judges favorites.

  2. #22

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    Well, of course individual judges have biases and sometimes favorite skaters.

    But that kind of favoritism will vary with the individual judges and they'll cancel each other out.

    When all the judges score a certain skater higher than jump content or artistic appeal to fans would suggest, it's more likely in response to something about the actual skating that may not translate well on video than to all the judges getting together and conspiring to overmark that skater.

  3. #23
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    It works on both sides of the coin - the Technical Elements as well as the Component Scores.

    COP allows judges to have possibly a big influence by applying very positive GOEs for a skater's completed elements (effect multiplied by up to 12-13 in the long program) just as much as applying inflated component marks...

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    When all the judges score a certain skater higher than jump content or artistic appeal to fans would suggest, it's more likely in response to something about the actual skating that may not translate well on video than to all the judges getting together and conspiring to overmark that skater.
    THIS.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Well, of course individual judges have biases and sometimes favorite skaters.

    But that kind of favoritism will vary with the individual judges and they'll cancel each other out.

    When all the judges score a certain skater higher than jump content or artistic appeal to fans would suggest, it's more likely in response to something about the actual skating that may not translate well on video than to all the judges getting together and conspiring to overmark that skater.
    yeah, but can you say that about 2008 world Kostner's second finish, or 2010 world Lepisto's third finish? I heard lots of booing from the crowd who were watching their actrual skating.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I agree with you.
    But for some skaters, there are objective facts that they are overscored on some PCS.
    Plushenko´s (non-existent) Transitions for example


  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leticia View Post
    yeah, but can you say that about 2008 world Kostner's second finish, or 2010 world Lepisto's third finish? I heard lots of booing from the crowd who were watching their actrual skating.
    Blades across the ice.

    As has been said time and again on this board, Kostner and Lepistö have some of the best basics of any skaters of the CoP era. Those who were booing may have been watching their jumping instead of their skating. The judges look at both.

    Also, with respect to 2008, much of the booing was due to fans' perception that the fourth-place finisher, Yukari Nagano, had landed a triple axel in the Free Skate. The jump was marked as underrotated.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Well, of course individual judges have biases and sometimes favorite skaters.

    But that kind of favoritism will vary with the individual judges and they'll cancel each other out.

    When all the judges score a certain skater higher than jump content or artistic appeal to fans would suggest, it's more likely in response to something about the actual skating that may not translate well on video than to all the judges getting together and conspiring to overmark that skater.
    What you say makes total sense and they cancel each other out the overwhelming majority of the time, and if they don't it isn't noticeable and doesn't really matter.
    But with only 9 judges it's mathematically possible for an imbalance in the bias of the judging panel that isn't cancelled out by others on the same panel to make a difference that is very noticeable to many fans. Someone mentioned Lepisto's bronze at 2010 Worlds. She edged out Miki Ando by 0.8 points for that bronze.
    It doesn't take much non-cancelled out bias for that to have happened (I'm not saying it did happen).

    The main points are still:
    1. Judges are only human not machines.
    2. Their natural, unavoidable bias cancel each other out or don't matter in the overwhelming number of competitions
    3. Some fans have a bias toward remembering only the few times when they think (but have no proof) that judge bias affected the standing/medals/results.
    4. The correct judging of skaters based on the quality of their performances is the norm to such a degree that obsessing about the few exceptions is pointless.
    5. Natural human bias is NOT the same thing as konspiracy.

    -

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I agree with you.
    But for some skaters, there are objective facts that they are overscored on some PCS.
    The Mike Pike?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Your analysis of the Adam/Ross scenarios make no sense to me.

    Adam was 7th after the sp at 4CC. He barely missed the bronze. And his PCS should have been 5+ over Ross at Nats. I don't see the favoritism.
    Last edited by kwanette; 03-14-2012 at 08:34 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5Ali3 View Post
    Darts.

    The judging panel gathers, simultaneously with the skaters' draw for the initial starting order, at a secret non-disclosed location. They take turns drawing numbered darts from a small velvet bag and aiming them at a dartboard in the shape of Sonia Bianchetti's face. The dart that lands closest to her right nostril represents the starting order of the skater who the judging panel will place first. If a dart lands on her right ear, the skater with that starting order will receive questionable < calls; if a dart lands on her left ear, the skater with that starting order will receive benefit-of-the-doubt calls. Because this "judging dart draw" occurs at the same time as the skaters' draw, the judges are unaware of which skater is represented by which dart; therefore, this is considered an unbiased selection procedure untainted by national bias.

    The procedures for pairs and dance are a little different: for pairs, the judge must throw two darts concurrently and the distance between the darts is measured and combined with the distance from Bianchetti's right nostril to determine final placements. For dance, two darts are thrown concurrently and the technical panel assigns a level of difficulty to the toss based on the spiral of the darts in the air, and the rest of the judging panel gives a GOE to the beauty of the toss and a PCS to the timing and rhythm of the toss. This information is fed into a computer program written by some computer company based in Michigan, which in turn spits out the final placement for that event.

    For Synchro... well, let's just say that it can get bloody.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    As has been said time and again on this board, Kostner and Lepistö have some of the best basics of any skaters of the CoP era. Those who were booing may have been watching their jumping instead of their skating. The judges look at both.
    Judges' favouritism aside, I know you're right, but I find it riddiculous considering these girls (Lepisto in particular) don't even look pretty when they skate (by pretty I mean graceful of course, not appearance-wise). I absolutely hate the way Lepisto skates (skated? has she retired or sth?). My point is that I hate the fact CoP is favouring "blades across the ice" over actually doing eye-pleasing things on ice.

    Also, blades matter, but jumps should matter too. I mean, this particular case was a double jump fest from Lepisto. I get she might have nice edges, but for crying out loud, you have to actually be able to land some triples to be a worthy world medalist. At least in my book.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    quality of blades moving across ice? Judges love that

    I didn't realize judges examined a skater's blades and gave them points for that

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    I didn't realize judges examined a skater's blades and gave them points for that
    Absolutely, if the blades are a little rusty, they get slightly lower GOE. I have seen a skater with neon green tinted blades (well the blades were not green, but the bottom of the boot/skate was, and the metal on the blades reflected that colour, to give the appearance of a greenish tint), that = plus on GOE.

    Did I mention that the sizes and length of blades also go into the scores?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltnskater View Post

    Did I mention that the sizes and length of blades also go into the scores?
    Size matters....
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leticia View Post
    yeah, but can you say that about 2008 world Kostner's second finish, or 2010 world Lepisto's third finish? I heard lots of booing from the crowd who were watching their actrual skating.
    But just because they were watching and didn't like the score doesn't mean they understand they rules of the sport.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    quality of blades moving across ice? Judges love that
    Yep after all the responses this one still makes the most sense.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Size matters....
    It's not the size that matters it's how you use them ....
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    My point is that I hate the fact CoP is favouring "blades across the ice" over actually doing eye-pleasing things on ice.
    I think 6.0 judging also often favored blades across the ice over eye-pleasing things on ice. And fans whose eyes were pleased by skaters who didn't win were just as inclined to hate that fact as now under IJS.

    But fans at that time were even more inclined to attribute results they disagreed with to politics rather than to a difference in priorities.

  20. #40
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    Judge's favorites are the skaters whose under-rotations and wrong edges aren't called as regularly as other skaters, those who may fall but somehow haven't, and whose pcs is always high regardless of the quality of the actual performance.

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