Was It A Mistake To Send Czisny & Abbott to the Challenge Cup?

[Jammers]

The whole system is a crap shoot, Dornbush had a better fall season than Mahbanoozadeh and beat him in the FS at nationals so they decided to forgive him the SP bomb there and make him 1st alternate for 4CC. They also made a gamble sending 16th place finisher Farris to JW and he ended up winning silver, placing ahead of 9th place nationals finisher Brown, with a huge score, and came super close to winning the title. In that situation, the gamble paid off, you could have said Warren was more "deserving" of the spot based on the way he skated at Nats, but no way would he have come in 2nd in that field had he been sent. Ricky skating well will beat Armin skating well internationally, USFS knows that, so they sent him. They probably thought his SP at nats was a fluke, turns out he was actually in a bit of a rut, so while it sucks for Armin, his GOOD performances at nats probably seemed like a fluke because he was so lackluster on the GP. What it comes down to is, none of the other US men, if skating clean, can top a clean Abbott in international competition, and of the US ladies, the only ones who, if skating clean, can top a clean Alissa in international competition are Ashley, who is already going to Worlds, and Mirai, who was not solid at nationals and has been off her game a bit this whole season. So they might as well send Jeremy and Alissa to Worlds, if they bomb there, the USFS will take note and I'm sure invest more attention in younger skaters with more potential for the future coming up through the ranks next season.

I don't think Ashley would beat Alissa internationally if both skated clean. In fact Mirai would probably beat Ashley if both skated clean as we've seen when Mirai actually does put it all together the judges do usually reward her too.

[viennese]

I'm wondering why ANY of the top skaters would have done this event so close to Worlds.

I wondered the same - even after Kostner's strong skate.

What's the rationale behind having top skaters peak twice in 3 weeks?

In years past, when some National championships, Grand Prix Finals, plus Europeans were all scheduled in January-February, skaters, coaches and fans noticed a weariness creeping in by the time World came around in March. Isn't this the reason that GPF is now in December?

[Frau Muller]

I don't think Ashley would beat Alissa internationally if both skated clean. In fact Mirai would probably beat Ashley if both skated clean .....

Not so sure about that. Ashley presents herself in a more confident manner (speed, facial expression, choreographic accents, etc.). There's more to PCS than some pretty, well-centered spins.

[Wyliefan]

I don't think Ashley would beat Alissa internationally if both skated clean. In fact Mirai would probably beat Ashley if both skated clean as we've seen when Mirai actually does put it all together the judges do usually reward her too.

Not when Mirai pulls that emotionless zombie act that she's been doing lately. (I still can't get used to seeing that from her. She used to be such a fun skater.)

[Seerek]

I think in the case of Carolina Kostner, it was a good idea to test out the new jump layout for the LP at least once before Worlds, since she's dropping a more dependable easier element for a more difficult element that is getting better in consistency as the season progresses.

[Jammers]

Not when Mirai pulls that emotionless zombie act that she's been doing lately. (I still can't get used to seeing that from her. She used to be such a fun skater.)

I meant when Mirai skates like she's capable such as at 4CC last year when she skated with some passion and emotion. Not the Mirai this year that looks like she belongs in a zombie movie with her emotionless skating.

[jlai]

Anyway, I do think Jeremy needs a "down" competition, though perhaps not quite far down in the TES. Anyway, anyone knows why he switched the flip and lutz? Made no sense to me at all

[Marco]

The best thing about this competition is to secure Kostner's position as gold favorite and to take pressure off Wagner from having the highest seasons best total score.

But how come the ISU statistics are not updated? Are they not yet updated or does the competition not count for this?

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/...12/sbtslto.htm

[Triple Butz]

Anyway, I do think Jeremy needs a "down" competition, though perhaps not quite far down in the TES. Anyway, anyone knows why he switched the flip and lutz? Made no sense to me at all

Adding a 3t to either of the 3lutzes late in the program has eluded him all season, so I'm guessing they were planning to make that first lutz a 3/3 and do it in the first half when he's less tired...just a guess though.

[judgejudy27]

I don't think Ashley would beat Alissa internationally if both skated clean. In fact Mirai would probably beat Ashley if both skated clean as we've seen when Mirai actually does put it all together the judges do usually reward her too.

Ashley at 4CCs scored higher than Alissa ever has internationally by a good margin (that is comparing to events like the GP final and Worlds last year which is as close to "clean" as Alissa will ever skate, period). Even if you think the score was inflated, there is no way it was as inflated as U.S Nationals would be and Ashley basically tied Czisny's score from her own Nationals last year, which was truly her best competition ever. Not to mention she is the one who is U.S Champion and reigning 4CCs Champion now, while Alissa is neither U.S Champion or reigning GP final Champion anymore. I am pretty sure Ashley would come out ahead right now, even if both skated well. Before Nationals I would have agreed with you, but things are not the same anymore.

As for Mirai her stock has definitely dropped, she has to turn in a few solid competitions in a row to build it back up. Not to mention have better programs skated with more attack and oomph, even if she skates cleanly. Mirai skating the best performances of her life by far came a distant 4th at the Olympics, and would have been below Rachel Flatt of all people without her 2 downgrades, Lepisto without her 2 doubled jumps, and Ando if she skated just slightly less abysmal, so lets not pretend the judges will immediately go goo ga over a clean Mirai to the point other Americans could never compete, let alone the reigning U.S Champion and 4CC Champion.

Until proven otherwise all three of them are still only second tier contenders at the World level at best, until one of them actually medals at a Worlds. None at their best is much better than the other two, but Ashley who is by far skating the best of the trio right now and has the judges momentum and recent titles behind her, definitely has the edge at the moment, even if all 3 magically competed the next day and skated very well.

[Nomad]

Thanks for setting us all straight. Whatever would we do without you?

[Susan M]

I'm wondering why ANY of the top skaters would have done this event so close to Worlds.

I'm wondering why the ISU would let anyone schedule an event like this so close to Worlds.

Yes, it probably would have been smarter to send the folks who just missed the World team, but I wonder if it would have been seen as a bit of an insult to the Dutch organizers to send less than our best. Maybe the USFS gained some "you scratch my back..." points for this. Are there Dutch judges on any of the panels at Worlds?

So, maybe the USFS figured neither of these skaters ever does much of anything at Worlds anyway, so burning them here isn't really much of a price to pay. Heck, maybe going into Worlds with such a good excuse for failure will actually take the pressure off and they will skate well. We'll see.

[geod2]

(deleted, nevermind)

[kwanfan1818]

But how come the ISU statistics are not updated? Are they not yet updated or does the competition not count for this?

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/...12/sbtslto.htm

For the ISU Season's Best list, only scores from GP's (Jr. and Sr.) including the final, the Olympic qualifying competition and the Olympics (N/A this season and next), Youth Olympic Games (this season) and Jr. and Sr. championships count.

Senior B's count for World Standings/Ranking points and for the minimum TES qualifying scores for championships. A few that are held before GP season ends and are listed in the GP Announcement also count towards meeting the GP minimums.

[Jenifer]

I'm wondering why the ISU would let anyone schedule an event like this so close to Worlds.

Yes, it probably would have been smarter to send the folks who just missed the World team, but I wonder if it would have been seen as a bit of an insult to the Dutch organizers to send less than our best. Maybe the USFS gained some "you scratch my back..." points for this. Are there Dutch judges on any of the panels at Worlds?

So, maybe the USFS figured neither of these skaters ever does much of anything at Worlds anyway, so burning them here isn't really much of a price to pay. Heck, maybe going into Worlds with such a good excuse for failure will actually take the pressure off and they will skate well. We'll see.

Those eville Dutch! And here I was thinking that this was one of many small competitions in Europe featuring mainly second-tier skaters that usually get bypassed by the big names and are unknown to most fans.

Caro, Alissa, etc, chose to skate here in preparation for worlds. Was it a good idea? We'll see come worlds. But these conspiracy theories are just silly.

[Jaana]

It´s difficult to decide, whether it was a mistake or not to send these two skaters to Challenge Cup... On the other hand to participate in a competition is good, but on the other hand one loses training time while travelling and being in a competition, especially if the event is in another continent and Worlds event is very close. And in Challenge Cup their skating was not so good, but anyway better to have bad performances in Netherland rather than in Nice.... Or will their bad luck continue? Hopefully not!!!

USA has several good skaters in men and ladies and therefore really needs to get three World spots in those disciplines again, especially as the Olympics are approaching. So much pressure on the shoulders of the participants, no wonder if the known "headcases" break.

[Zemgirl]

I'm wondering why the ISU would let anyone schedule an event like this so close to Worlds.

Three weeks before Worlds isn't that close, and it's great timing for skaters in need of a tuneup, those looking to try some new elements without the pressure of Worlds, or people in need of ranking points or an ISU minimum score.

Caro, Alissa, etc, chose to skate here in preparation for worlds. Was it a good idea? We'll see come worlds. But these conspiracy theories are just silly.

Exactly.

[Skittl1321]

or people in need of ranking points or an ISU minimum score.

This especially. Didn't at least one skater QUALIFY for world's by getting a minimum score here?

[Jammers]

Ashley at 4CCs scored higher than Alissa ever has internationally by a good margin (that is comparing to events like the GP final and Worlds last year which is as close to "clean" as Alissa will ever skate, period). Even if you think the score was inflated, there is no way it was as inflated as U.S Nationals would be and Ashley basically tied Czisny's score from her own Nationals last year, which was truly her best competition ever. Not to mention she is the one who is U.S Champion and reigning 4CCs Champion now, while Alissa is neither U.S Champion or reigning GP final Champion anymore. I am pretty sure Ashley would come out ahead right now, even if both skated well. Before Nationals I would have agreed with you, but things are not the same anymore.

As for Mirai her stock has definitely dropped, she has to turn in a few solid competitions in a row to build it back up. Not to mention have better programs skated with more attack and oomph, even if she skates cleanly. Mirai skating the best performances of her life by far came a distant 4th at the Olympics, and would have been below Rachel Flatt of all people without her 2 downgrades, Lepisto without her 2 doubled jumps, and Ando if she skated just slightly less abysmal, so lets not pretend the judges will immediately go goo ga over a clean Mirai to the point other Americans could never compete, let alone the reigning U.S Champion and 4CC Champion.

Until proven otherwise all three of them are still only second tier contenders at the World level at best, until one of them actually medals at a Worlds. None at their best is much better than the other two, but Ashley who is by far skating the best of the trio right now and has the judges momentum and recent titles behind her, definitely has the edge at the moment, even if all 3 magically competed the next day and skated very well.

You make it seem like Mirai was lucky to have finished 4th at the Olympics. It would have been a travesty if Rachael had finished ahead of Mrai in Vancouver. As for Ando and Lepisto she beat those two girls fair and square. In fact Mirai's performance would have gotten her a medal in most any other Winter Olympics in the last 20 years or so but she picked the wrong Olympics to skate so well since everyone in the last group skated great.

[query5]

i dont know, from what i saw,
alissa didn't fight.
for me what came out both her and her coach was still thinking about past 0--4cc.

it seems if they focused more on challenge instead of bringing up past she might have done better, but than i always thought of alissa as more of a front end skater (beginning season) than ending season skater.
in other words she skated better in beginning than at end.

i think alissa has to focus more on end than she does /want to. in my opinion.