New Australian Pattern Tests

[Angelskates]

Is this the British skating thread I've popped into?

[sk8ingcoach]

No, it didn't sound like that at all; it's a point that can be made in many of the newer ISU member programs' skaters. I remember the first Pairs team from India who competed internationally and what critiques came from that performance.

I think you overreacted to some perceived slight, which reflects more about you than about them. As others have pointed out, this is an area of development for many skaters in countries with few elite coaches/skaters and they do have to be challenged to improve. That's difficult to do without any training partners or picayune coaches. Anne Schelter has been brought in by ISA to conduct stroking and edge workshops for the elite skaters, so the ISA is addressing the issue.

Rather than sticking your head in the sand, I wouldn't be quite so defensive or arrogant; it's a common situation, even in the US, for skaters to be criticized for their posture, stroking and edgework. The US Moves tests were introduced to address this gap, so it's a good step for the Australian federation to take.

Parents and skating fans can recognize good edges and stroking, even though they may not be able to make corrections to the skater's technique. To take every word as a severe criticism is a sign of inexperience as a coach and an insult to the person making the comment. For all you know, that person may be a former skater themselves that CAN recognize areas of improvement, moreso than even you. Just because s/he is a parent doesn't make their opinions or observations any less accurate. I have several skating parents who actually study skating to help their skaters understand why I'm so picky about pointed toes, body position and extension.

Coaches who have confidence in their abilities and their skaters tend to react with poise and dignity, not vehemence and dismissal.

As im pretty sure i know who OZ_skating_mum is, i know that she is JUST a parent. Yes she may watch a lot of skating but that doesnt mean she knows anything about turns, patterns and edges. She doesn't know whats involved. I wouldn't have reacted to this if it were a coach, or an official, but from a mother it doesnt seem appropriate.

Im not trying to come off as an angry person or an arrogant person, i just didnt think it was appropriate for a mother to comment about high levels skaters saying that their standard isn't high enough.

She should know that in Australia we don't have the facilities or the money to produce internationally high ranking skaters. All of our previous and current highest level skaters ( cameron medhurst, Carrs, Cheltzie lee, Brenden) All spend lots of time in the US. So although the new Australian patterns are a step in the right direction, i dont believe we are going to see too much of a difference in our skaters because we just dont have the facilities and money to nurture our skaters.

Sorry if i came off a bit arrogant and demanding, i was just stating my opinion

[Skittl1321]

As im pretty sure i know who OZ_skating_mum is, i know that she is JUST a parent. Yes she may watch a lot of skating but that doesnt mean she knows anything about turns, patterns and edges. She doesn't know whats involved. I wouldn't have reacted to this if it were a coach, or an official, but from a mother it doesnt seem appropriate.

This is a fan board. Most of the posters here are fans, not officials. And yet what we do on this board is talk about skating- and often that is in the form of a critique.

What she said was perfectly valid, so she clearly knows SOMETHING. "JUST" a parent doesn't mean she isn't educated in the sport. Many people who are just fans know A LOT about what proper technique should look like. She never said she was able to teach it, or she could do better than a coach. But pointing out that the skill is lacking doesn't require anything more than knowledge of the sport.

[sk8ingcoach]

This is a fan board. Most of the posters here are fans, not officials. And yet what we do on this board is talk about skating- and often that is in the form of a critique.

What she said was perfectly valid, so she clearly knows SOMETHING. "JUST" a parent doesn't mean she isn't educated in the sport. Many people who are just fans know A LOT about what proper technique should look like. She never said she was able to teach it, or she could do better than a coach. But pointing out that the skill is lacking doesn't require anything more than knowledge of the sport.

I will agree that pointing out that a skill is lacking doesn't take much knowledge. But I don't think i parent would no much about technique. Im sure she wouldn't be able to tell me all the different turns and edges, or how to do them, or what they look like. She just likes the ones that flow nicely and look pretty. Edges take a lot of technique to do correctly which im sure she wouldnt know about.

Im not trying to get angry, but as a coach im just stating how i interpreted her comment, as it seemed like she thought she could do it better than high level skaters

[Ozzisk8tr]

I will agree that pointing out that a skill is lacking doesn't take much knowledge. But I don't think i parent would no much about technique. Im sure she wouldn't be able to tell me all the different turns and edges, or how to do them, or what they look like. She just likes the ones that flow nicely and look pretty. Edges take a lot of technique to do correctly which im sure she wouldnt know about.

Im not trying to get angry, but as a coach im just stating how i interpreted her comment, as it seemed like she thought she could do it better than high level skaters

Sorry but I have to comment. How do you know that she just likes the pretty and flowy turns?
I read nothing in the original post that gave me the impression you got. IMHO your post reads like you know who she is and just don't like her.

[sk8ingcoach]

Well i do know who she is, and I don't have anything against her. I just didnt like that the critical comment of high levels skaters in australia ( who i teach) came from a parent who doesnt know much about skating.

[misskarne]

I'm currently at Aussie Skate Free Skate 3, and have a flip and loop fully rotated (I just can't land them on one foot) so with the obvious view to my ISA tests, Coach and I started working on the Preliminary edges recently.

Coach also showed me the new Elementary patterns. We went right through them and did them all.

I think they're pretty good. The Elementary pattern didn't contain anything that I didn't already know how to do, it just requires a greater level of control and execution. I can do them all roughly, it's just a case of polishing them. So I don't think the pattern tests are demanding anything over the top.

I can see how these will benefit. For example, too many skaters learn the rough three-turns and then continue on with those without working to hone and refine the turn. Guilty as charged over here - I have issues holding the back inside edge on the end of a forward outside three-turn, but for the Elementary patterns, holding that edge is paramount.

[can'tsk8]

Australia does have the odd high level skater with great edges, sadly in international competitions they may not be marked fairly because the perception is Aussies don't skate well. Some skaters may lack the big jumps but they do have quality skating skills and will not be rewarded for them, unfortunately the component score can be subjective. I also do not think anything oz skating mum said was offensive or intended to be offensive.

[Oz_sk8ting_mum]

Well i do know who she is, and I don't have anything against her. I just didnt like that the critical comment of high levels skaters in australia ( who i teach) came from a parent who doesnt know much about skating.

Sk8ingcoach, just a couple of things.

Im sorry that you can't see or choose not to see what I said. It seems you are the only person who sees it the way you do.

I'm also saddened to think that you as a coach don't feel that better edge work and skating skills will improve our results much O/S as you said in a previous post. I choose to disagree

You say you know who I am thats great, I'm not hiding.

But let me tell you you don't know whats in my head, the same as I don't know what is in your head and what I or anyone can and can't learn, don't try and dumb me or anyone down by telling me I can't know something because I'm not a coach. Do I know what a forward pass is in football ... yeah .. do I play the game .. no.. am I coach of football ... no ... well how can I know when it's a forward pass .. I can see it, I can learn thats a forward pass, the same as I can see a three turn, or a rocker, or a bracket and I learn what makes it so, fortunately I spend a bit of time with Dancers so that helps, could I teach someone how to do it .. no way!! But I can see it.

It's clearly obvious that you have made up your mind to take offence where none was intended, I can't help that.

Good luck and have a great day!

[sk8ingcoach]

Sk8ingcoach, just a couple of things.

Im sorry that you can't see or choose not to see what I said. It seems you are the only person who sees it the way you do.

I'm also saddened to think that you as a coach don't feel that better edge work and skating skills will improve our results much O/S as you said in a previous post. I choose to disagree

You say you know who I am thats great, I'm not hiding.

But let me tell you you don't know whats in my head, the same as I don't know what is in your head and what I or anyone can and can't learn, don't try and dumb me or anyone down by telling me I can't know something because I'm not a coach. Do I know what a forward pass is in football ... yeah .. do I play the game .. no.. am I coach of football ... no ... well how can I know when it's a forward pass .. I can see it, I can learn thats a forward pass, the same as I can see a three turn, or a rocker, or a bracket and I learn what makes it so, fortunately I spend a bit of time with Dancers so that helps, could I teach someone how to do it .. no way!! But I can see it.

It's clearly obvious that you have made up your mind to take offence where none was intended, I can't help that.

Good luck and have a great day!

I have studied the patterns, and i believe that they are a step in the right direction. But i do not believe they will make a considerable difference in our international results.

I believe that you know what the different turns are, i dont believe you would be able to identify a specific turn when you see one.

But this isnt about me criticising you. This is about how i just interpreted your original statement a little different from others.

[Aussie Willy]

I have studied the patterns, and i believe that they are a step in the right direction. But i do not believe they will make a considerable difference in our international results.

I believe that you know what the different turns are, i dont believe you would be able to identify a specific turn when you see one.

But this isnt about me criticising you. This is about how i just interpreted your original statement a little different from others.

And I think you interpreted it incorrectly. You have actually been quite personal in the comments you have made and it really is not appropriate.

If you are a high level coach, I would actually expect a bit more professionalism in your approach to the discussion on this forum.

[AndyWarhol]

I have studied the patterns, and i believe that they are a step in the right direction. But i do not believe they will make a considerable difference in our international results.

I believe that you know what the different turns are, i dont believe you would be able to identify a specific turn when you see one.

But this isnt about me criticising you. This is about how i just interpreted your original statement a little different from others.

What do you think will make a difference to our results?

[sk8ingcoach]

What do you think will make a difference to our results?

Better facilities, more ice time, and a bit more funding doesn't hurt...

The new patterns i agree will help some younger skaters improve more quickly, but i do not believe they will make a considerable differences in our international results.

[AndyWarhol]

Better facilities, more ice time, and a bit more funding doesn't hurt...

The new patterns i agree will help some younger skaters improve more quickly, but i do not believe they will make a considerable differences in our international results.

I agree about the ice time, or more accurately, the cost of ice time. It costs double for me to skate at Ice House in Melbourne than it did in Perth (and in Perth the ice time was unlimited, you can just buy a yearly pass.. the only way i can see anyone having that luxury at Ice House is if one works there)

[Jumpin Bean]

Here's to hoping the moves in the field tests improve the skating skills of our skaters. The vast majority of our learners will not reach international competition level for whatever reason but right now most of the skaters going to international competitions do not have the skating skills to get the results they need to sustain their drive to continue to compete.

This problem starts with (and this will offend) the number of our coaches who would not be able to pass these tests themselves but are more then happy to charge $80-$90 an hour. Ice skating in Australia remains a social/casual activity where skaters training for world championships share ice with beginners toe picking their way around.

For many years Tibi Straub fought with the "establishment" to have a pathway for mature skaters to have their own tests to enable them to set goals and have the satisfaction of achievement. For years in Ice dance there has been the problem that the "competition" dances for the season have not been the test dances.

Lets hope the new tests will help parents understand that basic skating is the first "trick" a skater needs to learn, that jumping and spinning isn't skating.

To improve the international results our skaters need to spend more time exposed to the sort of training conditions skaters overseas train under- this was clearly demonstrated with our dance results at worlds this year.

[can'tsk8]

I think there are many issues with Skating in Australia, I do believe that making the tests at all levels easier is NOT helping and also that the vast majority of skaters taking tests are not able to execute the required elements with any quality or ease and that coaches who charge $80 - $90 per hour should be making sure their skaters are capable of the test requirements, sadly this starts from the lowest test levels to the hightest! If skaters are not of the required standard they really should not pass the test!

Looking at Hollins Trophy results you can see that the boys are much stronger than the girls! Most of the senior men had 2A's when they were skating at the Novice level several years ago, which WAS the required jump in the Short program, now it is no longer required so no one tries it therefore, lowering the standard. Not one Junior skater landed a 2A at Hollins Trophy this year in the short program! Most of the Senior Men train for large chunks of the year in USA.

I know that it is important to keep skaters in the sport BUT just giving tests to Junior and Seniors that cannot execute a basic 2A just does not make sense, if you can pass your tests without the required jumps where is the incentive to work harder! Coaches take the money without having really done their job well, although I know a lot of parents and kids just want to be able to say they are "junior" or "Senior" and coaches are under pressure to keep everyone happy! Conditions are not great in Australia but they are good enough for skaters to get to a high novice standard with a 2A which would be the building blocks for junior and senior! To be truely successful internationally the skaters need to move overseas to have enough quality ice time, I agree with Jumpin Bean this has been well demonstrated with the recent results achieved in dance at worlds. Some Australian high level skaters have very good edges, but they are Australian and will be marked as such in International competitions as long as the component score is subjective.

[AndyWarhol]

I think there are many issues with Skating in Australia, I do believe that making the tests at all levels easier is NOT helping and also that the vast majority of skaters taking tests are not able to execute the required elements with any quality or ease and that coaches who charge $80 - $90 per hour should be making sure their skaters are capable of the test requirements, sadly this starts from the lowest test levels to the hightest! If skaters are not of the required standard they really should not pass the test!

Looking at Hollins Trophy results you can see that the boys are much stronger than the girls! Most of the senior men had 2A's when they were skating at the Novice level several years ago, which WAS the required jump in the Short program, now it is no longer required so no one tries it therefore, lowering the standard. Not one Junior skater landed a 2A at Hollins Trophy this year in the short program! Most of the Senior Men train for large chunks of the year in USA.

I know that it is important to keep skaters in the sport BUT just giving tests to Junior and Seniors that cannot execute a basic 2A just does not make sense, if you can pass your tests without the required jumps where is the incentive to work harder! Coaches take the money without having really done their job well, although I know a lot of parents and kids just want to be able to say they are "junior" or "Senior" and coaches are under pressure to keep everyone happy! Conditions are not great in Australia but they are good enough for skaters to get to a high novice standard with a 2A which would be the building blocks for junior and senior! To be truely successful internationally the skaters need to move overseas to have enough quality ice time, I agree with Jumpin Bean this has been well demonstrated with the recent results achieved in dance at worlds. Some Australian high level skaters have very good edges, but they are Australian and will be marked as such in International competitions as long as the component score is subjective.

totally agree with all of this.

I like the fact that adult skaters now have to to the pattern tests to skate at a particular level, a bit more structure is always good.

[sk8ingcoach]

I agree about the ice time, or more accurately, the cost of ice time. It costs double for me to skate at Ice House in Melbourne than it did in Perth (and in Perth the ice time was unlimited, you can just buy a yearly pass.. the only way i can see anyone having that luxury at Ice House is if one works there)

Iceworld Boondall and Acacia Ridge only costs $2.50 for a skater/each session... And for skaters with a senior test, there ice time is free.

[sk8ingcoach]

I think there are many issues with Skating in Australia, I do believe that making the tests at all levels easier is NOT helping and also that the vast majority of skaters taking tests are not able to execute the required elements with any quality or ease and that coaches who charge $80 - $90 per hour should be making sure their skaters are capable of the test requirements, sadly this starts from the lowest test levels to the hightest! If skaters are not of the required standard they really should not pass the test!

Looking at Hollins Trophy results you can see that the boys are much stronger than the girls! Most of the senior men had 2A's when they were skating at the Novice level several years ago, which WAS the required jump in the Short program, now it is no longer required so no one tries it therefore, lowering the standard. Not one Junior skater landed a 2A at Hollins Trophy this year in the short program! Most of the Senior Men train for large chunks of the year in USA.

I know that it is important to keep skaters in the sport BUT just giving tests to Junior and Seniors that cannot execute a basic 2A just does not make sense, if you can pass your tests without the required jumps where is the incentive to work harder! Coaches take the money without having really done their job well, although I know a lot of parents and kids just want to be able to say they are "junior" or "Senior" and coaches are under pressure to keep everyone happy! Conditions are not great in Australia but they are good enough for skaters to get to a high novice standard with a 2A which would be the building blocks for junior and senior! To be truely successful internationally the skaters need to move overseas to have enough quality ice time, I agree with Jumpin Bean this has been well demonstrated with the recent results achieved in dance at worlds. Some Australian high level skaters have very good edges, but they are Australian and will be marked as such in International competitions as long as the component score is subjective.

This is the most perfect statement, i agree with everything

[Aussie Willy]

Iceworld Boondall and Acacia Ridge only costs $2.50 for a skater/each session... And for skaters with a senior test, there ice time is free.

Okay someone can correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is because the state association owns those rinks, they can make it cheaper for the skaters. Other states are not in the same position.

As for the Icehouse, it is expensive because the Grollo group are trying to make their money back on their investment as soon as possible. As much as rink management would like to make it cheaper for skaters, they take their instructions from Grollo. Which is to the detriment of the ice sports.