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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    But I have to wonder - having never had kids - given that breastfeeding was the only way women could feed babies for thousands of years - why is is to hard?
    I think a lot of women now give up easily because there is another option to get their babies fed. I guarantee that if formula didn't exist, the women you mentioned would have breastfed even if it hurt like hell every single time. Either that, or they'd find a wet nurse.

    Re: the topic of the thread, I think it's ridiculous that LLL opposed this ad. I'm currently pregnant with my 1st, and will be a SAHM, but I will be pumping occasionally just so DH can have the opportunity to feed the baby and bond. I won't lie, I think it'll also be nice to get an occasional break from being the human milk machine.

  2. #22
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    Ah yes, long live the nanny state.

    My sister just went back to work this week after having twins in December. Her husband is going to be "Mr Mom" (since she makes more, he quit to be full time nanny for the first few years). She pumps and saves breast milk, but they also supplement with formula as well, because she can't make enough to keep up with two seriously hungry beasts. I guess she's not a true mother, and of course, her husband isn't one at all. For shame!!
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  3. #23
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    I thought the argument was breast milk was best for the baby, who cares what nipple it comes from? I pumped and and whoever it was fed my child, as long as it was breast milk for as long as I could produce it, I don't see a problem.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    I thought the argument was breast milk was best for the baby, who cares what nipple it comes from?
    The actual sucking mechanism is important too. Babies suckle differently with a synthetic nipple as opposed to an actual breast, and there are health benefits associated with suckling on an actual breast.

    FTR, I'm not involved, nor ever have been, with any LLL.

  5. #25
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    LLL is like PETA - the core cause is worthy, but the tactics are batshit and it becomes more about the people in the group than the original purpose.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    But shouldn't a woman be free to choose whether she wants to directly breast-freed, pump, or use formula - or any combination of the above?
    Of course! That's a given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    But I have to wonder - having never had kids - given that breastfeeding was the only way women could feed babies for thousands of years - why is is to hard?

    Is it the loss of women's lore and wisdom that occurred in the advent of male-dominated science and medicine? Or was it always hard?
    I think it was always hard but it really depends on the baby's style of nursing. There are some gentle ones and there are barracudas. I had a little barracuda that took a layer of skin off every time. The lactation consultant said everything was correct, the latch, the hold. But that was just him, an aggressive feeder. I cried every time and used tons of Lansinol (sp?) And I also pumped because I went back to school 3 weeks after he was born. Or as soon as I could sit.

    As to your second question: I think it was the 50s that lived under the slogan "Better living through chemistry" which is rather the reverse of what's in vogue now, everything natural, not man-made. So formula was erroneously considered superior to breast milk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I also think that giving fathers an opportunity to feed the baby (pumped breast milk) is great. IME, dads are so much more involved these days. Feminism works both ways.
    Last edited by IceAlisa; 03-02-2012 at 06:47 PM.
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  7. #27

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    I think we have 'lost' a lot of knowledge by not being around other nursing mothers - and by having babies late. My mom had me when she was 35, I had my first when I was 32. I asked my mom questions and she mostly said - hmm I don't remember . I bet if I had had a baby when I was 18 she would have!
    We also used to have a community of helping with babies - and many many years ago it was more natural for women to just have suckling babes and later the community of women were 'hidden away' but probably still do it. ( I believe some of the issues with people opposing breast feedign in public comes from the prude years, but now women want to be part of public life AND feed their babies)

    Luckily for me, the hospital had their own lactation nurses, who were realistic and nice - and they put the baby health above all else. Mini-viking was 4 weeks early, and he could latch on, but he would spend too many calories trying to suck - he was allowed to suck for a few min. They recommended to finger feed him rather than using a bottle (using a syringe and tube on our finger), using either pumped milk or formula if I couldn't pump enough. At 14 days, he moved to the breast exclusively with no trouble.

    I think their priority was at it should be:
    1. get the baby enough nutrition
    2. get the baby breast milk
    3. get the baby nursing on the breast

  8. #28
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    On the 'only way for thousands of years', well, yes. Though bottles have also existed for thousands of years, wet-nursing used to be common, and when those weren't options when a woman couldn't produce enough, well, the kid died and that was that. Losing an infant or two used to be less "OMG TRAGEDY" than "such is life."

  9. #29

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    I agree - there are reasons infant mortality is that low, formula is one of them.
    I still believe that nursing is an awesome feeling - if it works - and breast milk is best for baby - if there is enough.

    I wonder if before formula people would try animal milk if they couldn't nurse the baby for some reason and had no wetnurse available?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by maatTheViking View Post
    I agree - there are reasons infant mortality is that low, formula is one of them.
    I still believe that nursing is an awesome feeling - if it works - and breast milk is best for baby - if there is enough.

    I wonder if before formula people would try animal milk if they couldn't nurse the baby for some reason and had no wetnurse available?
    I some cultures, goat's milk was considered the next best thing to mother's milk.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasey View Post
    Ah yes, long live the nanny state.
    Aren't La Leche a private organisation?

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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Aren't La Leche a private organisation?
    Yes. I think hospital cost cutting measures have done away with lactation nurses and consultants in many places. LLL stepped in to fill the void - a perfect made scenario for them.
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  13. #33

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    Back in the day (our kids are 29 and 26 now) we had the la Leche book. They weren't quite as crazy then as they are now, but I got a good laugh out of their statement that breastfeeding was a good natural method of birth control - then looked at the bios of the founders, one had 12 kids, another had 9 etc, etc...

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Hmmm... it has been a lot of years, but my hospital had a lactation nurse who came around and helped with nursing questions; I think for mom's who went home the same day/next day they had her make a home visit. I found her really helpful -- D didn't like nursing in the "standard" position but was happy as a clam in the "football" hold. I remember that she was available by phone or by appointment for follow-up questions.
    I think those services are great but they can't remotely replace just growing up around something and so "knowing" things that no one actually told you.

    As for LLL, they are kind of like the Girl Scouts. Every chapter has a different flavor and emphasis depending on who the leaders are. I went to one when Mini-Mac was little and they were fairly normal. They met at a hospital and the emphasis was 90% on getting new mothers off to a good start. The leaders and some of the long-time, hard-core members were a lot more crunchy-granola but they were pretty low-key and private about it because they didn't want to scare away women who only wanted help with breastfeeding and nothing else.

    The only thing that bugged was that, as Mini-Mac got older ,they just couldn't believe she was still breastfeeding because I worked. So they kept forgetting to invite me to the stuff for breastfeeding toddlers.

    Also I went to a conference in the area and that was, um, interesting.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    On the 'only way for thousands of years', well, yes. Though bottles have also existed for thousands of years, wet-nursing used to be common, and when those weren't options when a woman couldn't produce enough, well, the kid died and that was that. Losing an infant or two used to be less "OMG TRAGEDY" than "such is life."
    Really? People say things like this all the time ("People didn't get as attached to their children back then,") yet great grief seems to be a common theme in accounts of infant deaths I've read.

    Wet nurses were common only among the wealthy, which only goes to show that women who had the luxury to avoid breastfeeding did so. I think that says something about how difficult breastfeeding can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by nerdycool View Post
    I think a lot of women now give up easily because there is another option to get their babies fed. I guarantee that if formula didn't exist, the women you mentioned would have breastfed even if it hurt like hell every single time.
    You do what you have to do, that's for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by nerdycool View Post
    Re: the topic of the thread, I think it's ridiculous that LLL opposed this ad. I'm currently pregnant with my 1st, and will be a SAHM, but I will be pumping occasionally just so DH can have the opportunity to feed the baby and bond. I won't lie, I think it'll also be nice to get an occasional break from being the human milk machine.
    Personally, I never had any trouble with breastfeeding, but pumping? It was easier to just do it myself.
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  16. #36
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    Pumping was fine but nursing was Lots of my friends had no problems nursing, like I said, depends on the nursing style of the baby.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Really? People say things like this all the time ("People didn't get as attached to their children back then,") yet great grief seems to be a common theme in accounts of infant deaths I've read.

    Wet nurses were common only among the wealthy, which only goes to show that women who had the luxury to avoid breastfeeding did so. I think that says something about how difficult breastfeeding can be.



    You do what you have to do, that's for sure.



    Personally, I never had any trouble with breastfeeding, but pumping? It was easier to just do it myself.
    I hated pumping- and loved breast feeding, but ended up mostly pumping after my child was 3 months old, as my job involved lots of travel, and long work hours.

    As for child mortality and people's perception of it- it is a really interesting question. I often try to imagine life in the past, and death and pain were so much more an everyday occurence then (at least compared to the modern Western world- after World War 2 generation- am stating the obvious here). Capacity for suffering, though, was the same; but ( generalizing here) pregnancies were much more numerous with no automatic expectation of a grown adult resulting from it. I think emotionally it computes somewhere in the middle- the suffering was the same, but the expectation for survival was different. Sorry if it sounds morbid ( and off-topic), but i find it a fascinating thing to ponder ( and, expanding the topic, ditto for forebearance of pain and mental instability through time).
    On topic: pulling out the ad seems utterly irrational.
    Last edited by dinakt; 03-03-2012 at 07:43 AM. Reason: spelling
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  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    On the 'only way for thousands of years', well, yes. Though bottles have also existed for thousands of years, wet-nursing used to be common, and when those weren't options when a woman couldn't produce enough, well, the kid died and that was that. Losing an infant or two used to be less "OMG TRAGEDY" than "such is life."
    Actually then the parents would try and find a wet nurse among family etc, then probably milk (goat or cow) and then as soon as they got old enough probably broth etc. People adapted, they found a way to keep their kids alive.

    An Irish doctor who practiced in my local town would advise mom's to put their kids on broth as soon as possible. He was a big believer that keeping babies on milk was not as beneficial as everyone thought.

    I think the LLL gets their tail in a twist over the breast feeding thing. When I walk through a mall I don't see a B (breastfed) or an F (formula) or an N (neither) stamped on everyone's forehead. Seems to me, we all kind of look you know the same.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pat c View Post
    Actually then the parents would try and find a wet nurse among family etc, then probably milk (goat or cow) and then as soon as they got old enough probably broth etc. People adapted, they found a way to keep their kids alive.
    Which would be why I SAID "wet-nursing used to be common" and "bottles have also been available". No, they often didn't find a way to keep their kids alive.

    And I'm sure they felt sad, but unlike today it wasn't some sort of life-destroying, counseling-required massive tragedy. If it were we'd still be living in the Dark Ages as even if they didn't die of malnutrition, pre-antibiotics, vaccinations, and general hygiene disease could and did get plenty of them. (Heck, even in the twentieth century--I would have had a fourth aunt on my father's side but they hadn't invented the whooping cough vaccine back then.) Up until fairly recently (and still in much of the third world) chances were that all of your children would NOT survive, and that's just part of life. The shorter average life spans are not just because people didn't live AS long (people could and did frequently make it well past 70) but because all the under-five deaths skews the average down. If people reacted like some first-worlders do these days to losing a child civilizations would have come to a crashing halt. That's not even allowing for cultures where exposing infants happened.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    And I'm sure they felt sad, but unlike today it wasn't some sort of life-destroying, counseling-required massive tragedy.
    And you know that how?
    If people reacted like some first-worlders do these days to losing a child civilizations would have come to a crashing halt.
    Isn't that how the Dark/Middle Ages have oft been described?

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