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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    A world with no religion? No matter how much misery has been done in the name of religion, I would not be willing to live in a world without my religion.
    I would love living in a world without religion!

    For one thing, surveys show that atheists are more moral that believers on average.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post

    It bothered me a lot when John said the Beatles were bigger than God too. No they weren't.
    Well, none of us has any conclusive proof that God exists, so until then yes they were.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  3. #23
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    Without religion there would be no "Crime and Punishment" or Mahalia Jackson or "Annie Hall" and that's just not a world I would want to live in.

    However, a world without that...that....Justin Bieber mangling ANY song on New Year's Eve is perfectly ok with me.
    The fastest thing out of New Jersey since Tricky Nicky in a Muscovian handbasket

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    If you're not an atheist, that line is offensive. I'm not crazy about the song but that line has always bothered me. A world with no religion? No matter how much misery has been done in the name of religion, I would not be willing to live in a world without my religion.
    Would you be willing to live in a world without countries (borders, governments, etc.)? Or a world without possessions (private property)?

    The point of the song is to imagine an idealized world that is not based on anticipation of an afterlife (no heaven or hell) or on drawing lines between groups of people to set them against each other.

    Countries, religion, possessions are all about drawing lines.

    Imagine a world where land, relation to the divine however you experience it, resources and manufactured goods all exist but are available for personal use or sharing without drawing lines and fighting over them.

    Not a practical vision for a foreseeable future, but an ideal to make us question whether we really need to draw all those lines and put up all those barriers between us.

    One could argue that it's as much an anarchist or communist ideal as an atheist one.

    But it's really not atheist at all because it doesn't say imagine a world with no god.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    Without religion there would be no "Crime and Punishment" or Mahalia Jackson or "Annie Hall" and that's just not a world I would want to live in.
    No the Reverend Mr. Collins or Vicar of Dibley, either, I guess. That would take away some of life's laughter, wouldn't it. John Lennon obviously hadn't thought things completely through -- or wasn't much of an Austen fan.

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    Love the original song and love the original lyric. And I love how much it pisses off religious folks clinging to their dogma.

    Cee-lo's cover is just that, a cover. It's his take on it. I don't really see the change as a big deal.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan5 View Post
    No the Reverend Mr. Collins or Vicar of Dibley, either, I guess. That would take away some of life's laughter, wouldn't it. John Lennon obviously hadn't thought things completely through -- or wasn't much of an Austen fan.
    Without religion there would be no "The Feeling Begins" or "Ave Maria".
    The fastest thing out of New Jersey since Tricky Nicky in a Muscovian handbasket

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Imagine a world where land, relation to the divine however you experience it, resources and manufactured goods all exist but are available for personal use or sharing without drawing lines and fighting over them.

    Not a practical vision for a foreseeable future, but an ideal to make us question whether we really need to draw all those lines and put up all those barriers between us.

    One could argue that it's as much an anarchist or communist ideal as an atheist one.

    But it's really not atheist at all because it doesn't say imagine a world with no god.
    No, it doesn't, does it. From the wiki page I linked in my previous post:
    At the press conference Lennon described his own belief in God by quoting the Bishop of Woolwich, saying, "... not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us."
    Though, I suppose for some this way of thinking would be "atheistic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    Without religion there would be no "The Feeling Begins" or "Ave Maria".
    Not to mention York Cathedral, the Church in the Rock, Notre Dame Cathedral, the Book of Kells, the Parthenon (temple to Athena), Hagia Sofia, most Renaissance art...........
    I know. But I do not approve. And I am not resigned.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    If you're not an atheist, that line is offensive. I'm not crazy about the song but that line has always bothered me. A world with no religion? No matter how much misery has been done in the name of religion, I would not be willing to live in a world without my religion.
    I saw a video on youtube recently that included statistics that stated that things would be worse off without atheists (which I assumed was an implication that things would be better without religion being so prevalent in our lives). Here is the link:

    Imagine If All Atheists Left America

    But I don't know how accurate the statistics are that this video cites...

    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    It bothered me a lot when John said the Beatles were bigger than God too. No they weren't.
    I think the Beatles were as likely to take the p*** out of themselves as much as they were anybody else. I'm guessing they felt the mania around their group was off-the-charts crazy. They probably just saw themselves as some pop group, nothing worthy of all the attention they were getting. So when John made this comment, I think he was being flippant and meant that the kind of attention they were receiving should be directed at something greater than four young pop stars.

    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Write your own song. Don't change a classic. WTF was he thinking?
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    It bothered me a lot when John said the Beatles were bigger than God too. No they weren't.
    I don't remember John Lennon ever saying this. The quote I remember is "We're more popular than Jesus now." Which considering the Beatlemania of the time and the steady decline of Christianity in the UK since the First World War, this might have seemed true to a young man surrounded by the madness of fame. I'm not excusing or blaming, just stating the general feeling of the time. Lennon's quotes provoked no public reaction in the UK.

    After the quote was published in the US and other parts of the world, the outcry began. Lennon later tried to explain: "Well, originally I pointed out that fact in reference to England. That we meant more to kids than Jesus did, or religion at that time. I wasn't knocking it or putting it down. I was just saying it as a fact and it's true more for England than here. I'm not saying that we're better or greater, or comparing us with Jesus Christ as a person or God as a thing or whatever it is. I just said what I said and it was wrong. Or it was taken wrong. And now it's all this."

    So yeah, he didn't say they were bigger than God, he said that at that moment they were more popular than Jesus, at least in the UK.

    Here endeth the lesson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    Without religion there would be no "Crime and Punishment" or Mahalia Jackson...........
    I can't imagine a world without Mahalia Jackson's "Go Tell It on the Mountain."

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    Without religion there would be no "The Feeling Begins" or "Ave Maria".
    And no boring skating programs to them either. Everybody wins!

    Quote Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
    I don't remember John Lennon ever saying this. The quote I remember is "We're more popular than Jesus now." Which considering the Beatlemania of the time and the steady decline of Christianity in the UK since the First World War, this might have seemed true to a young man surrounded by the madness of fame. I'm not excusing or blaming, just stating the general feeling of the time. Lennon's quotes provoked no public reaction in the UK.
    Also, the way they said it, they said it like it wasn't particularly a good thing.

    As for not having all the music people have said they can't imagine being without ... if Imagine isn't asking you to imagine a world without God, why wouldn't most of those songs still exist? The ones about spiritual themes certainly would.

    I don't know any great inspirational songs that are about how wonderful a particular religion's dogma is. A few comedic ones perhaps.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  13. #33
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    I can't imagine Lennon's estate (controlled by Yoko Ono) signing off on this.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    I would love living in a world without religion!

    For one thing, surveys show that atheists are more moral that believers on average.
    It would be one great World, wouldn't it? Probably for another thread, though.
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    As for not having all the music people have said they can't imagine being without ... if Imagine isn't asking you to imagine a world without God, why wouldn't most of those songs still exist? The ones about spiritual themes certainly would.
    Gospel music certainly would not exist without religion. Gospel music is about loving Christ and being a Christian. If there were no Christianity then there would be no gospel music. No churches, no gospel. Dem's the rules.

    We'd probably have to kick that Lutheran Bach to the curb, too.

    And forget music, who the heck would poor Richard Gere go visit in Tibet if there were no need for the Dalai Lama?
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    IMO, it is simply unfair to assume that all the misery caused by/in the name of religion would not have happened if religion did not exist, but all the good caused by/in the name of religion (such as care for the poor, discussed extensively in another thread) would have happened, even if religion didn't exist.

    More to the point, though, is that the merits (or lack thereof) of the ideas expressed in Lennon's song have nothing to do with Green's "changes". Lennon wrote the song to express Lennon's ideas; if Green wants to express different ideas, Green should write a different song ... not pass off Green's ideas as those of Lennon.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    And forget music, who the heck would poor Richard Gere go visit in Tibet if there were no need for the Dalai Lama?
    Again, you say that like it's a bad thing.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by cygnus View Post
    Not to mention York Cathedral, the Church in the Rock, Notre Dame Cathedral, the Book of Kells, the Parthenon (temple to Athena), Hagia Sofia, most Renaissance art...........
    And no Tebowing.
    I think I will have a snack and take a nap before I eat and go to sleep.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    It bothered me a lot when John said the Beatles were bigger than God too. No they weren't.
    He never said that. He said they were more popular than God. And did not mean that as a good thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    No matter how much misery has been done in the name of religion, I would not be willing to live in a world without my religion.
    If religion never existed, there would be no thoughts of being unwilling to live in a world without it.

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