What's a GOE? Do you have a link showing it?
It is Grade of Execution. They range from -3 to +3. If you do an element really well you get +1, +2, or +3 GOE. If you don't do it well, you get -1, -2, or -3. If you just do it "average" you get 0.
Here's an example of a report card from an interpretive event held in Canada, where only PCS were awarded: http://www.skateabnwtnun.com/LinkCli...language=en-US
Someone mentioned the issue of computers upthread..."going manual" (i.e., judging and calling is all done on paper, without computers), is not difficult or excessively time consuming if you have good data specialists on hand. I've been at numerous competitions where this has been done.
6.0 needs to die in a fire. It makes me shudder to know that it still exists anywhere.
All the suggestions for a modified IJS are lovely, but the fact remains that IJS is a costly system for clubs to use - costly in ice time (every skater takes an average of 45 to 60 seconds longer than the norm under 6.0), in officials (adding 3 tech panelists to the norm of 5 judges and a referee - and in long competitions, you can't expect the same people to judge every event all day so you need two panels at least) and in equipment (the mini system is expensive to rent and the paper system uses more than 10 times the paper per event that 6.0 uses and takes much longer for the accountants to set up).
Since IJS costs the clubs more to use, they have to raise entry fees to cover their expenses. That puts a lot of competitions out of reach for a lot of the younger, newer competitors and could discourage a lot of parents from keeping their kids in the sport.
I'd rather be thought of as absolutely ridiculous than as absolutely boring.
At developmental levels, there has to be some leniency.
Although someone described how to get a sit spin to "count" in combo, in IJS you can't do upright spins. For many bronze ladies- the spins they have are sit spin, scratch spin, and backspin. If their sit spin doesn't count, that's out. Then they can't do both a backspin and a scratch spin, so what is left? A single upright spin and then maybe a sit-upright (if the judges count the sit as an intermediate position)? In 6.0 they can do the three single spins. Not differentiating between a backspin and a scratch spin in 6.0 causes a giant problem for people who only have a few spins. In pre-bronze, a lot of ladies are still doing 2 foot spins, which get no points at all.
The competition I linked to is relatively high level bronze skaters- no one who is just barely bronze is going to go to Germany to compete (unless they happen to be from Germany.)
I know my program I'd be lucky to score a double digit. If I fell, I'd likely get a negative score.
My loop would be downgraded for sure, so no value.
I have a waltz jump-toe loop, the waltz jump has no value, that toe loop is generally cheated (sad...). I don't think I'd get any points here.
My sit spin would not count, it is fast, and centered, but not low enough.
My salchow would probably be downgraded, so no value.
My backspin is on the right edge, but I often don't cross my foot, would it count if I'm "not in position"?
My footwork is only half ice- is there provision for that? I might get a few points here.
My toe loop is usually not cheated. It might get me a few points.
My scratch spin is excellent, but I've already done an upright spin, no points here either.
Without major revision, I don't see how this system works for low level skaters.
I know that you're not in Canada, but just to give you an idea of how your program would score under Skate Canada's modified version of IJS, you WOULD get credit for your waltz jump and at least partial credit for all of your singles, as long as they're just "underrotated" but not actually "downgraded". (If they're underrotated by more than 90 degrees then, no, you wouldn't get any credit.)
For your spins, no, you wouldn't get credit for your sit spin if it's not low enough. However, positions on upright spins (including backspins) are optional, so it doesn't matter if you cross your foot or not on your backspin. So, you would get full credit for your backspin, as long as you get enough revs. You're right that you can't get credit for both a forward upright spin and backspin, though - a lot of Skate Canada adult bronzes will do an upright spin and a change upright spin. If you have an upright spin and a backspin, then a change upright spin could be an option for you (if it's allowed under the USFS requirements), and that's worth more points than an individual spin anyway.
Footwork just has to cover "at least half of the ice surface" for Skate Canada adult IJS, so you're fine there. (Level 1 footwork is actually REALLY easy to get credit for - all you have to do is cover enough ice and that's it - you get your points!)
Also, remember that there is the PCS score as well, which definitely will always be above zero (even if it's very very low, which it is for many of us ), so it would be very hard to end up with a negative overall score unless you fall a LOT of times.
I don't know what the restrictions are like in the US, but in Canada, the bare minimum you can run an event with is 3 judges (one can judge and ref) and a 2-person technical panel. There's no need to have 5 judges for a basic skills event.
In Canada, under 6.0, data specialists still had to attend competitions and run their computers to post and calculate results. I agree more paper is used, but that's not a strong argument for keeping an archaic system that's detrimental to skater development, over one that actually allows skaters to improve and receive valuable feedback.
Keeping 6.0 is not the answer. Adapting IJS to suit lower levels, and addressing any potential cost issues, is. The judges who even know what 6.0 is are going to run out at some point. People can't cling to that system forever. And it's not fair to the skaters.
They should be judged under ISJ in my opinion. It doesn't make sense to be judged under one system for a year or so, then change. Skaters will be better in the long run if they are already comfortable with all the ISJ involves.
You can quite easily judge lower levels with components under IJS. We do it for artistic events. You could pick Skating Skills and Performance as the two.
We have used a program called SkateScore which is great with 6.0 (based on an Excel macro) but it is no longer being developed for later versions of Excel. If you have Office 2007 or 2010 it just won't work.
I do agree with the comment already made in this thread about the amount of time and effort used to set up an event, particularly with IJS. Having done the computer side of things many time it can be quite exhausting (and I just did a 3 day adult event). SkateScore does involve some time doing pre-event data entry but then you just have someone to enter everything manually during the event which takes a few minutes for each event. You don't need a whole bank of computers which can then have connection problems which just freak everyone out.
When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.
US Figure Skating uses the HAL2 program for 6.0 events. It's a great little program that produces all the documents needed for a competition from starting orders to announcers' sheets to judges marks and whorksheets as well as calculating the results. One person with a laptop can handle a basic skills competition (although it's always best to have two people and two laptops just in case).
Even small IJS competitions require two accountants, at least two laptops and printers, (more if you have more than one ice surface) and a staff of people behind the scenes to generate all those lovely results. Frankly most clubs who host small low-level competitions have decided that IJS isn't worth the time and effort involved. Having the choice of system is beneficial to them and to the skaters.
If you don't want to compete in 6.0 competitions, that's fine too. But requiring all competitions at all levels to be held under IJS is just not practical.
I'd rather be thought of as absolutely ridiculous than as absolutely boring.
Having two completely different judging systems makes the sport so much more difficult for young skaters. For example, I knew a girl that won basically every competition under 6.0 on the Pre-Juvenile level. She landed four "double" jumps (all about 1/2 cheated) and she had decent speed and charisma. When she switched to Juvenile the following year, she placed dead last almost every time and ended up quitting due to frustration. Why? Because her jumps were finally being downgraded and her less than stellar spin positions were finally being accounted for. If this girl knew about these problems at a younger age, she could have avoided the frustration and shock that oftentimes occurs when skaters hit the Juvenile level. That's why IJS needs to be in place for at least Pre-Preliminary - Senior.
^^^ If you feel so strongly about it, wouldn't it be more beneficial to try and DO something about it rather than posting on a skating fan forum?
Last edited by Jenna; 02-21-2012 at 11:29 PM.