Should all Competitions,Basic Skills included be judged by our moderen judging system

[FSWer]

Ok. Responses in the 6.0 Thread encouraged me to start this one. What I want to know from you all today is...do you believe or think it is time to dump the 0.6 System entirely..and begin using it all around? Prior to already finding that the new System is more farer and easier scoring? What do you all think?

[Jenna]

Actually, I do. 6.0 is dead. D-E-A-D and it's never going to come back. I think we would better serve out young skaters if we trained them using the IJS from the very beginning. Sure, there would be segment scores of like 4.83 winning competitions, but we have to start somewhere.

[rosebrallier]

I agree that 6.0 is long dead. Also, I think CoP gives a lot more useful feedback to skaters.

[FSWer]

What does cop mean?

[Nomad]

Code of Points

[VALuvsMKwan]

What does cop mean?

Code of Points. It is what the IJS non-6.0 judging system is based on.

[ChibiChibi]

There are a few competitions in my area that uses simplified IJS judging for Pre-Preliminary level and up. I know most coaches and judges don't like it. Some kids get < or << or "e" on their single jumps, and I'm not sure if it helps young skaters. Yes, they should learn to rotate jumps and use correct take-off edges, but using the IJS system to judge skaters with single and easier double jumps (2s and 2t) might be too much.

Also, with the IJS, judging takes more time (= more ice time for hosting clubs), and you need judges with certain qualifications.

[Judge Dred]

What does cop mean?

Do you even know what your talking about FSWer??

[orientalplane]

Do you even know what your talking about FSWer??

Do you even know how to write good English, Judge Dred?

[zaphyre14]

IJS is not practical for smaller low-level competitions. The computer system is expensive, requires more manpower and uses more ice time. IJS is not designed for low Levels (USFS has had it adapted for use down to Juvenile level, but lower levels would require a rewrite of the entire program, according to the technical accountants I've spoken with). The manual-entry system uses tons of paper and takes much longer to produce results. The vast majority of skaters (according to statistics compiled by USFS) compete at the bottom levels and in Basic Skills events. IJS does not accommodate rules for non-standard events, like Showcase and Individual compulsory moves, which are offered at non-qualifying competitions.

If all competitions are forced to use IJS then 90% of the competitions would disappear. And since most club host competitions as fund-raisers, without competitions, the clubs would fold and there would be fewer places for skaters to train and compete.

Skating is not just about the elite competitors. IJS was designed for International levels. I can understand its usefulness at qualifying competitions and at the big opens that are training grounds for national and international skaters. It is not practical or useful for all ompetitions.

[Clarice]

I agree with zaphyre14. IJS is simply not useful for little kids doing bunny hops and swizzles. Beginning skaters need to focus on developing their basic skating skills, not worry about points and levels. I think that starting IJS at Juvenile, the lowest qualifying level in the U.S., as we do now, is just fine. Enough competitions offer IJS for that level and higher that serious competitors can easily find opportunities to compete under that system. It isn't necessary to require it for all competitions.

[Skittl1321]

IJS wouldn't work for basic skills skaters- they would pretty much just get points for an upright spin. Half jumps don't have point values, sit spins that are no parallel to the ice don't get points, their footwork sequences are not full ice so "don't count".

The system would have to have major modification to work for the lowest levels.

Here is an example of IJS used for low level skating. Look at the protocols for the Bronze ladies- many many elements have a value of 0. Now, think of skaters doing even lower level than Bronze (pre-bronze, basic skills freestyle, basic skills)- where would those skaters get points?
http://www.deu-event.de/results/adult2010/index.html

[Judge Dred]

Ok. Responses in the 6.0 Thread encouraged me to start this one. What I want to know from you all today is...do you believe or think it is time to dump the 0.6 System entirely..and begin using it all around? Prior to already finding that the new System is more farer and easier scoring? What do you all think?

Apologies

Actually, I do. 6.0 is dead. D-E-A-D and it's never going to come back. I think we would better serve out young skaters if we trained them using the IJS from the very beginning. Sure, there would be segment scores of like 4.83 winning competitions, but we have to start somewhere.

They should have kept it, but improved it.

[Sylvia]

Great informative post, zaphyre14! (bolded parts mine)

IJS is not practical for smaller low-level competitions. The computer system is expensive, requires more manpower and uses more ice time. IJS is not designed for low Levels (USFS has had it adapted for use down to Juvenile level, but lower levels would require a rewrite of the entire program, according to the technical accountants I've spoken with). The manual-entry system uses tons of paper and takes much longer to produce results. The vast majority of skaters (according to statistics compiled by USFS) compete at the bottom levels and in Basic Skills events. IJS does not accommodate rules for non-standard events, like Showcase and Individual compulsory moves, which are offered at non-qualifying competitions.

If all competitions are forced to use IJS then 90% of the competitions would disappear. And since most club host competitions as fund-raisers, without competitions, the clubs would fold and there would be fewer places for skaters to train and compete.

Skating is not just about the elite competitors. IJS was designed for International levels. I can understand its usefulness at qualifying competitions and at the big opens that are training grounds for national and international skaters. It is not practical or useful for all ompetitions.

Actually, I do. 6.0 is dead. D-E-A-D and it's never going to come back. I think we would better serve out young skaters if we trained them using the IJS from the very beginning. Sure, there would be segment scores of like 4.83 winning competitions, but we have to start somewhere.

How would you go about implementing this?

[sk8girl]

The system would have to have major modification to work for the lowest levels.

Skate Canada has a modified version of IJS which they have been using very successfully at lower levels for several years now, including for all levels of adult competition in Canada. Maybe they can give it to USFS in exchange for a couple of senior women? (Sorry, couldn't resist ) They added waltz jumps to the system and developed well-balanced program requirements for each category. It works very well for any categories where skaters are doing at least waltz jumps and single jumps, including Skate Canada's lowest adult category (bronze). (A typical Skate Canada adult bronze skater would be doing a waltz jump, several different single jumps (including two combos, I think), two different spins, and a spiral or step sequence.)

As an adult skater, I love it and far prefer it over 6.0, and the lower level kids I know like it too, because it lets them understand their placement. (Usually both kids and adults competing under IJS for the first time get a big shock when they don't get credit for some of their elements, but then they read the rules and make SURE they get credit for everything at future events!! )

However, I would agree that IJS is probably overkill for categories where skaters aren't doing waltz jumps or single jumps yet.

[sk8girl]

There are a few competitions in my area that uses simplified IJS judging for Pre-Preliminary level and up. I know most coaches and judges don't like it. Some kids get < or << or "e" on their single jumps, and I'm not sure if it helps young skaters. Yes, they should learn to rotate jumps and use correct take-off edges, but using the IJS system to judge skaters with single and easier double jumps (2s and 2t) might be too much.

I think getting feedback on underrotated or wrong edge single jumps is a great thing - the earlier the better! Better to correct those problems on your singles, rather than moving onto doubles (and triples) with deeply-ingrained bad habits that will be VERY hard to fix later... (Look at all the elite skaters who are now getting hit by edge calls on their triple flutzes and lips, but are struggling to fix them because that's how they learned their triples (and probably their doubles)... If they were getting hit by edge calls or underrotation calls early on, they would have had the incentive to learn their doubles and triples correctly in the firsrt place.)

[Skittl1321]

Skate Canada has a modified version of IJS which they have been using very successfully at lower levels for several years now, including for all levels of adult competition in Canada.

I would prefer a modified IJS to a 6.0 system- I agree, the feedback is better. Are they lenient at all on "adult" sit spins. I do like that my sit spin attempt counts in 6.0, it won't ever on IJS.

[sk8girl]

I would prefer a modified IJS to a 6.0 system- I agree, the feedback is better. Are they lenient at all on "adult" sit spins. I do like that my sit spin attempt counts in 6.0, it won't ever on IJS.

No, they are not lenient on positions, unfortunately. Sit spins do need to be low enough and camel spins and spirals do need to have the free leg high enough... ("Low enough" and "high enough" being defined according to the current ISU standards.)

Soooo, if you know your sit spin isn't low enough (or that your free leg isn't high enough on your camel spin), you wouldn't put it in as an individual spin, because it *definitely* wouldn't count. However, I have found that you CAN get credit for a combo spin which contains a not-low-enough sit spin. I think it's because "intermediate positions" do count towards the revs in a combo spin and a not-quite-there sit would still count as an "intermediate position", even if they don't count it as a "real" sit.

The common strategy I've seen for adult bronze skaters under IJS (assuming they don't have a low enough sit spin) is to do an upright spin on its own (very safe, as long as you get the revs) and a combo spin with upright, not-quite-there-sit (counting as an intermediate position), and maybe some other position. (I have seen "sit"-upright combos get credit as a combo spin, even when the sit is definitely not low enough to count on its own.) Another common strategy for bronze adults is to do an upright and a changefoot upright as your two spins (if you have a backspin, obviously) - that takes away any possible issues with positions!

[sk8girl]

What I would love to see Skate Canada add to their IJS for low-level categories is something for sit spins that would be equivalent to a "<" underrotated call on a jump. i.e. To get the full base value on a sit spin, you would still need your skating thigh parallel to the ice, but there could be partial credit for a sit spin attempt that's not quite low enough. They could define it in terms of an angle, which would be easy enough for the callers to measure (they are already measuring angles on underrotated jumps). Like, a sit spin with your thigh less than 45 degrees above parallel would get called as a "< sit spin" and receive a certain percentage of the normal base value, but anything higher than that would get no credit.

[gkelly]

Good suggestion!

I also think the lower base value for moderately cheated jumps is good for us low-level skaters doing single jumps. At least 0.1 final score is better than no value for a downgraded single!

And I would suggest that if the minimum number of revolutions (on each foot) required on a spin is 3, that the spin should get called if there are at least 2 revs and let the judges give negative GOE.

Also it would be good to have a different base value for spins with one feature vs. no features. Even to perform level 2 with two features is a challenge at bronze level (and probably higher than level 2 shouldn't be allowed), but one feature at a time is possible. E.g., backward entry, or the more flexible adults might attempt difficult positions.