2002 Judging Scandal: Has The Medicine Done More Damage Than The Original Disease?

[winterone]

Just wondering are any of those judges still around? I would hope not. Hoping they were banished to detriot or siberia.

2002 Judging Scandal:... 02-17-2012 08:10 PM sk8er1964 Someone from Milwaukee slamming Detroit. How ironic.

To Sk8ter1964. That's right Milwaukee is safer and better than detwa! No one from the Detroit Skating club lives in Detroit. The Detroit skating club is in BLOOMFIELD HILLS. Hardly Detroit.

[sliver98]

technical panels now decide outcome of ice dance competitions for sure, it is the most subjective of all the disciplines and its sometimes very hard to understand why a level was downgraded.

[winterchik]

Not always. TS's can train to become TC's, and vice versa.

My understand to be TS you had to be a former skate of a good standard( depending on countries)
TC most comes from the judging ranks,

IF the system is corrupted first one needs to look from the top down who is running the show and who is responsible to keep the bastards honest..

[winterchik]

technical panels now decide outcome of ice dance competitions for sure, it is the most subjective of all the disciplines and its sometimes very hard to understand why a level was downgraded.

who makes the decision who goes where...that is the question and problem

[luna_skater]

My understand to be TS you had to be a former skate of a good standard( depending on countries)
TC most comes from the judging ranks,

That's generally how the training begins, yes. I should specify that in *Canada* once you are trained as a TS or TC, you can train for the other position. I would need to double-check whether you can do that at the ISU level.

[kwanfan1818]

The skaters feel as bad about the judging as does the audience. Who benefits from this system?

Perhaps you missed the part where Bourzat said, "Actually in the end we didn't ask them, because when we saw all the levels they gave everybody, we realized it was a really strict technical panel. We just had to get better and make happy even the strictest member of the panel. " (emphasis added)

[Aussie Willy]

Okay so going by the tone of the responses to this thread no coaches or judges should be involved in the sport because they are all corrupt and incompetent. So who is left to judge it?

[Zemgirl]

Okay so going by the tone of the responses to this thread no coaches or judges should be involved in the sport because they are all corrupt and incompetent. So who is left to judge it?

Michelle Kwan?

Actually, no, her sister and brother in law coach, so clearly she too has an agenda.

[demetriosj]

Okay so going by the tone of the responses to this thread no coaches or judges should be involved in the sport because they are all corrupt and incompetent. So who is left to judge it?

Typical snarky response to legitimate questions and concerns about the judging/judges/coaches involved in this sport and how can things be cleaned up!

& we always have to be reminded too that the judges are volunteers...

[cruisin]

Okay so going by the tone of the responses to this thread no coaches or judges should be involved in the sport because they are all corrupt and incompetent. So who is left to judge it?

No, there are honorable judges out there, just not enough. As far was coaches, they should NEVER be allowed on the panel, unless they stop coaching. That is how it used to be, why has it changed?

[AndyWarhol]

Surely a coach can't be on a panel to judge their own skater???

If there is a conflict of interested (for instance, your friends kid is a competitor) I was lead to believe you couldn't judge that group.

[gkelly]

As far was coaches, they should NEVER be allowed on the panel, unless they stop coaching. That is how it used to be, why has it changed?

Active coaches are still not allowed on judging panels.

So what's changed is the introduction of the technical panel.

I think the reason why active coaches are allowed on technical panels is because some of the decisions they have to make require intimate knowledge of technical details that are hard to identify in real time unless you 1) have done them yourself, preferably recently, and/or 2) see and analyze them every day at the rink, not just every few weeks when you're assigned to a competition

E.g., technical specialists for pair skating need to be former pair skaters themselves, and there just aren't enough of those in the world willing to become technical specialists who aren't also making their living as coaches

Surely a coach can't be on a panel to judge their own skater???

A coach cannot be a judge, period.

A coach cannot be on a technical panel if one of their own students, family members, or family member's students is in the group.

For other connections, they should recuse themselves if there's a conflict.

(I haven't looked up the specific rules)

[Sylvia]

Excerpts from ISU Rule 409: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

3. Technical Controller
The Technical Controllers are recruited from ISU Referees and Judges and
International Referees and Judges list, qualified in the ISU Judging System
based on nominations received from Members and confirmed by the respective
Technical Committee and who
– have the highest knowledge of Single and/or Pair Skating and/or Ice Dance
with regard to technical aspects;
– must have a good knowledge of spoken English language;
– must possess good communication skills;
– must be able to take directions and work within a team environment;
– must have completed an ISU seminar and successfully passed an
Examination;
– must adhere fully to the ISU Code of Ethics.

...

4. Technical Specialist/Assistant Technical Specialist
The Technical Specialists and the Assistant Technical Specialists are recruited
from the group of Coaches, Skaters no longer competing in ISU Events and
International Competitions, ISU/International Judges or ISU/International
Referees, based on nomination received by Members and who
– have the highest knowledge of Single and/or Pair Skating and/or Ice Dance
with regard to technical aspects;
– are involved on at least a weekly basis for this discipline on site;
– must be a former high level Skater (as a minimum at national level);
– must have a good knowledge of spoken English language;
– must possess good communication skills;
– must be able to take directions and work within a team environment;
– must have completed an ISU seminar and successfully passed an
Examination;
– must adhere fully to the ISU Code of Ethics.
...
A Referee or Judge, confirmed as a Technical Specialist cannot act as a Judge in
the same season.

[cruisin]

Active coaches are still not allowed on judging panels.

So what's changed is the introduction of the technical panel.

I see that as a thin line. They may not, technically be judging, but they are setting up the judging. I don't think coaches should be involved in the judging process, at all. Unless, as I said, they stop coaching.

[johndockley92]

being. on. the. tech. panel. is. not. judging.

I can tell you that being on the panel, the controllers are so concentrated on trying to figure out the levels and everything that they have no time to bias.

[demetriosj]

being. on. the. tech. panel. is. not. judging.

I can tell you that being on the panel, the controllers are so concentrated on trying to figure out the levels and everything that they have no time to bias.

& I've got some lovely ocean-front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you...........

[query5]

hard to answer, the cop isnt bad they just have to justify the pcs portion more,

the 6 '0s was subjective but at least if they fell and screwed up they didn't win.

i think if they would have mandortory deductions for not doing the required elements in the short,
have more deductions in pc portion for a fall,
i don't know how can bring back 6'0s now ,even with change, make the artistry portion more quantifiable in the 6'os.

[Aussie Willy]

Typical snarky response to legitimate questions and concerns about the judging/judges/coaches involved in this sport and how can things be cleaned up!

& we always have to be reminded too that the judges are volunteers...

And you are not snarky yourself? Pot calling the kettle black hey!

It is not just judges that are volunteers. The sport at club level and internationally is run by parents, skaters and many others who give hours so you can have a sport to bitch about. You go to a world championships and everyone there is a volunteer, from those doing the announcing, playing the music, doing the data entry, doing the ushering, etc etc. The Olympics for god sake runs on a volunteer workforce.

Judges are just one of the volunteer groups in the sport. If they along with everyone else stops volunteering and you don't have sport. That simple really.

[RD]

I remember the debate a while back whether judges should be paid professionals as opposed to volunteers, some who might even be closely connected to one or more of the skaters...

Still, as long as you have a human element like that, it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate bias entirely. But you still want to minimize it as much as possible. Has the ISU done everything in its power to do so?

[cruisin]

Judges are just one of the volunteer groups in the sport. If they along with everyone else stops volunteering and you don't have sport. That simple really.

Yes, the actual judging is not paid. However, the judges' travel, hotel, food are all paid for, and some (depending on the country) receive a stipend. They are usually put up in pretty nice hotels (nicer than the athletes/coaches). So, yes, they do volunteer time and they do have to make work absence arrangements, but they do get some perks.

The people working at the events do it on a completely volunteer basis. It usually costs them to help. Since they have to pay their own expenses, except for access to hospitality (minimal food) at venues.