2002 Judging Scandal: Has The Medicine Done More Damage Than The Original Disease?

[Zemgirl]

Chan didn't fall in 4CC this year, he had hands down. Since it wasn't a fall, the deduction for it shows up in PCS as opposed to a deduction from his total. He didn't splat or zambonie the ice. If you want to see an actual FALL, check out Dai's quad attempt.

This strikes me as a K&C topic, but since it came up here - IceIceBaby is correct; here is the relevant part of the ISU regulations:

A fall is defined as: “loss of control by a skater with the result that the majority of his/her own body weight is on the ice supported by any other part of the body other than the blades e.g. hand(s), knee(s), back, buttock(s) or any part of the arm.”

Chan's weight was supported by his hands (not just a hand down), not his blades, so it's pretty clear that the technical panel erred in this case (but Daylife got it right!) Which can happen, but let's not pretend it wasn't a fall. The rules apply to everyone, Patrick Chan included.

[Aussie Willy]

Wow, I didn't know that coaches are allowed to be technical controllers!

Coaches are not Technical Controller. They do Technical Specialist and Assistant TS role.

Technical Controllers are judges who then step into a TC role. And focus just on identifying elements and levels.

Really don't think the system of judging is the main problem.

The relationships between coaches and judges are so incestuous it's sickening. Coaches and judges and skaters traveling together to international events, for example, with coaches continuously sucking up to the judges who will be judging their skaters.... Calling judges under the guise of asking advise about their skater, all the while just kissing up.....constantly trying to curry favor for their skater...

How can any one system even begin to fix this type of mess?

And you know this because ......?

[bruno6]

A tek specialist is a Judge!! They are calling levels ... How ... On how they Think
The skaters are preforming. So they are using their human judgment! To call the level
That is why if the assistant tek specialist does not agree they call for a review . That
Is judging .. End of story however you wish to spin it ... A duck quacks!!! I agree
100 percent with demetriosj. I also know Sissy Kriek very well she is a wonderful person.
So if it looks like a duck it is . And no coach should be on the tek list at all!!

[caseyedwards]

Were you responding to something other than the voices in your head?

Because this post was right after mine I am going to say it was meant for me and say I was responding directly to something in the article. The way Armour seems to cast aspersions on a quad with mistake being worth more than a triple flip.

[cruisin]

Because this post was right after mine I am going to say it was meant for me and say I was responding directly to something in the article. The way Armour seems to cast aspersions on a quad with mistake being worth more than a triple flip.

Personally, I think a clean, well executed triple should be worth more than a poorly executed quad, with a mistake. In my opinion a quad that is landed with hands on the ice is not complete. If we reward jumps that are poorly done or incomplete, everyone will just do crappy quads and get credit for trying. That's not what skating should stand for.

[gkelly]

If we reward jumps that are poorly done or incomplete, everyone will just do crappy quads and get credit for trying.

Well, not everyone. Most people -- most skaters -- can't rotate quads, so if they try the best they'll come up with is crappy triples (if they're lucky) or worse than that.

However, for the maybe few dozen skaters in the world who are capable of rotating more than 3 1/2 times from a backward takeoff, I agree that rewarding them less for a solid triple than for an attempt that isn't close to a clean quad would not be the best way to go.

[bruno6]

And for the record Aussie willy your wrong
A coach can be tek control.. All three evaluate
The levels!!!

[professordeb]

This strikes me as a K&C topic, but since it came up here - IceIceBaby is correct; here is the relevant part of the ISU regulations:

Chan's weight was supported by his hands (not just a hand down), not his blades, so it's pretty clear that the technical panel erred in this case (but Daylife got it right!) Which can happen, but let's not pretend it wasn't a fall. The rules apply to everyone, Patrick Chan included.

Thanks for finding that information.

All I can say is perhaps in the eyes of the technical panel, they thought that the majority of Patrick's balance wasn't on his his hands. Truth to tell, I can't tell you what was in their minds when they watched that "fall".

I still prefer COP to 6.0 but would agree that this disease is far from cured. It does seem to have gotten a small shot towards becoming healthy.

[zilam98]

The problem is, the fewer people attend, the fewer media coverage there is, so it's really vicious cylce until, maybe, another Michelle Kwan pops up, I guess.

it will be a while before this current generation of skaters produces a kwan. this generation is still trying to learn how to work the CoP system while mastering jumps.

[topaz]

I don't see how FS can get rid of COP and stay in the Olys. The IOC basically told the ISU "make it more a sport and less an art or walk" so they really didn't have a choice.

Even if The Artist wins best picture, the old B&W glory days of hollywood are never coming back, and neither is 6.0

This!!

[luna_skater]

Coaches are not Technical Controller. They do Technical Specialist and Assistant TS role.

Technical Controllers are judges who then step into a TC role. And focus just on identifying elements and levels.

Not always. TS's can train to become TC's, and vice versa.

[bruno6]

My best suggestion is email the ISU tell them how you feel about the judging games.
And coaches being allowed to judge... They say.. they read every email .... amen.

[Maofan7]

New article on the subject

[cruisin]

Well, not everyone. Most people -- most skaters -- can't rotate quads, so if they try the best they'll come up with is crappy triples (if they're lucky) or worse than that.

True, there was a little hyperbole there on my part . But, you did get my point, that rewarding a more "difficult jump" poorly done should not be rewarded over a less difficult jump excellently done.

it will be a while before this current generation of skaters produces a kwan. this generation is still trying to learn how to work the CoP system while mastering jumps.

I wonder if it ever will work itself out. It's not just the judging system and the judging. We are also changing skating to accommodate the audience. We've eliminated figures from competition and the test structure and now compulsory dances may go the same way (already out of competition, hopefully not testing). Have we compromised edge and technical skating ability for entertainment? If you look at most of the outstanding skaters like Kwan and before, they all did figures. If not all of the tests, at least the first few. They got the basics. Now, it seems that skaters just want to get to the tricks and the sport just wants to reward the tricks. The quality of pure skating has diminished. Ultimately that will effect the tricks, as well.

[berthesghost]

^not buying that audience has all that power over skating. If anything, they seem to have no power. Skating isn't even shown on tv in the US anymore.

I think it's hard to convince the IOC that the ability to retrace a circle over and over again perfectly, or repeat a dance step over and over again perfect is "sport".

When you see athletes land historic 1st 3x or 1st 4t and then end up in places like 10th, it's hard to sell fs as a progressive "modern" sport.

[cruisin]

^not buying that audience has all that power over skating. If anything, they seem to have no power. Skating isn't even shown on tv in the US anymore.

I think it's hard to convince the IOC that the ability to retrace a circle over and over again perfectly, or repeat a dance step over and over again perfect is "sport".

When you see athletes land historic 1st 3x or 1st 4t and then end up in places like 10th, it's hard to sell fs as a progressive "modern" sport.

But, in fact, that is partly why they dumped figures and compulsories. That and time allowance. And FTR, figures is not retracing circle over and over again. Advanced figure tests are HARD. They are about slow, precise edge changes and tight turns. It's like barr work in ballet. Another one of the reasons they were dumped was because some of the good jumpers didn't do well in figures and didn't win medals. If they had to dump them from competition, so be it, but why did they remove them from the test structure? Probably because it held good jumpers, who were not great skaters, back.

And why does it have to be all about historic jumps? Jumps are just one element in skating. The problem is that it is becoming all about jumps, and nothing else. It's ruining the sport.

[bruno6]

I agree crusin , it boggles my mind instead
Of throwing out all the old corrupt judges , and I know
Most have been identified over the years to the Isu
But they just keep promoting them from judge to isu commitee , they would rather sacrifice
The sport and make the skater touch their ass and bend I to a
Pretzel just to get levels!!! Soon the will have them balancing
Plates on their heads to see who can do it the longest!!! The fans know ,they are fooling
No one . Events are empty thanks to that italian ass running the show.

[bruno6]

And now you have these corrupt coaches with skin in the game
Calling levels at major event to judge rival skaters!!! What a sham.

[berthesghost]

But, in fact, that is partly why they dumped figures and compulsories. That and time allowance. And FTR, figures is not retracing circle over and over again. Advanced figure tests are HARD. They are about slow, precise edge changes and tight turns. It's like barr work in ballet. Another one of the reasons they were dumped was because some of the good jumpers didn't do well in figures and didn't win medals. If they had to dump them from competition, so be it, but why did they remove them from the test structure? Probably because it held good jumpers, who were not great skaters, back.

And why does it have to be all about historic jumps? Jumps are just one element in skating. The problem is that it is becoming all about jumps, and nothing else. It's ruining the sport.

A big reason why they dumped figures is because it was too costly and the non rich countries were breaking and would probably end up out of the sport if figures weren't dumped. And it was never black and white... Often the leader after figures plummeted out of sight once the fs started. Then as now, the medals usually went to the most "complete package" skaters.

Fs relies on participation in the olys as its biggest marketing tool and source of income and talent. Almost all other oly sports are about bigger faster stronger. Most of them rely on record breaking to survive. So all of this focus on "historic jumps" is from the perspective of keeping the io csweet and thinking fs is a sport like the others. Why else was 6.0 dumped for this new onsessionwithsb scores etc... I don't meant he entire njs, but they could have done cop with a cap. Instead they promote higher and higher scores and record breaking in part to impress the IOC IMO.

[peibeck]

Another reason figures died was because the judging was frequently unfair and skaters were held up and pushed down a lot easier. Corruption in judging started with figures, free skates where everyone could easily watch and make more comparative results were less easy to manipulate. Just about every book I've read about skating (skater biography or talking about the history of the sport) has discussed these problems. The short program, in fact, was introduced, in part to help reduce the corruption involved with figures. The percent of the value of figures into the final "score" dropped to 40% when the SP was introduced, and I believed the value of figures was lowered several times (to, I think, 20%?) before figures were eventually removed altogether.