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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spareoom View Post
    I read a blog somewhere that seemed to think that one is meant to read between the lines regarding Katniss's choice. Their view was that once Katniss realized that Coin was really no different than Snow, something snapped and she voted for the Games in order to confirm Coin's choice with the subconscious understanding that Coin would need to be taken out before the Games became a reality. They gathered this based on how Haymitch responded and how he was reacting to Katniss; note that he doesn't vote either way but says that he's with the Mockingjay while coming to some sort of understanding with Katniss. Because you're right, it would never, ever be in Katniss's character to vote for the very thing that was ultimately responsible for destroying Prim; if there were no Hunger Games, Prim wouldn't have been reaped and Katniss wouldn't have volunteered and started the whole rebellion.

    Anyway, I'm reading the books through again so I am definitely going to looking at that scene closely.
    I didn't have any logic problems with Mockingjay--I'm not sure Katiniss really was thinking far enough ahead (that she'd have to kill Coin and stop another Games), I think she really just realized it didn't matter who was running things (and I think from the get-go we're meant to realize District 13 isn't really any better and in some ways is worse than the Capitol) but was just at a point of not caring. I don't think she realizes how to end it up until the moment she's pointing the arrow at Snow and figures out which President she has to shoot. (The one who can still do damage.)

    And I didn't really like Gale from the get-go so I was biased, but it was pretty clear--Katniss was not going to end up with him. Gale was always about death and pretty sneaky ways of killing at that. He fit right in with the Soviety-style system in 13 and deep down probably never really saw anything he did, up to and including comign up with the kind of attack that

    Spoiler

    , and never even really seems to LOVE Katniss so much as want her. Peeta just from a structural standpoint is always about LIVING. He gives Katniss 'the staff of life', he's associated in her memory with a plant (dandelion) that's both edible and a sign of spring (renewal), and he only 'loses himself' when his personality's altered by force...basically if she's going to end up with someone (and NOT ending up with someone means most likely winding up like Haymitch) there's one who'll only help affirm what she learned in the first arena (stay alive at all costs, cut down enemies, hunt) or one who can not only understand the way no one else can what the Arena was like but who also is about NOT giving in to those instincts to fight back, hurt them, etc.

    Not saying Gale wasn't justified in his outlook. Just saying, that would not be someone Katniss could be with after what she's been though, which given the arc of the books makes a lot of sense-she's not the person who met Gale in the woods. (It's even spelled out.)

    I have to admit, not getting a lot of the complaints I heard...the second two books make sense to me.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I was curious, so I decided to check this out. What Hollywood movies featuring non-white actors in lead roles were actually successes?
    I guess it depends on your definition of success, but to me I would include Safe House, Invictus, Shawshank Redemption, Dreamgirls, Blood Diamond, Stand and Deliver, La Bamba, Dances with Wolves, many of the movies by Denzel Washington (Deju Vu, Courage Under Fire, The Pelican Brief, Training Day, etc.) In the Heat of the Night (original with Sidney Poitier), They Call me Mister Tibbs, and several others.
    Only Will Smith seems capable of pushing a movie into blockbuster status based on his name alone
    I would include Denzel Washington.

    I don't mean to disagree with your overall assessment, though. I just think there may be a few other movies and actors you may be overlooking

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Actually it just says they have dark skin. This surprised me as I read the books after seeing the movie so I expected them to be described as AA or Black.
    Collins didn't really use current racial descriptions in the book. But she's said in interviews that they are African American.

    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    I have to admit, not getting a lot of the complaints I heard...the second two books make sense to me.
    Me either. I had no problem with them except maybe Katniss agreeing to the Hunger Games. But I don't know if that was really a logical problem so much as it just annoyed me.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    I guess it depends on your definition of success, but to me I would include Safe House, Invictus, Shawshank Redemption, Dreamgirls, Blood Diamond, Stand and Deliver, La Bamba, Dances with Wolves, many of the movies by Denzel Washington (Deju Vu, Courage Under Fire, The Pelican Brief, Training Day, etc.) In the Heat of the Night (original with Sidney Poitier), They Call me Mister Tibbs, and several others. I would include Denzel Washington.

    I don't mean to disagree with your overall assessment, though. I just think there may be a few other movies and actors you may be overlooking
    I definitely agree and my assessment wasn't based on the quality of movies or the actors in it. I was specifically talking about box office gross, ie. movies that make money. Just think about some of the big movies opening this year, the ones that are expected to have $50 million+ opening weekends...the studio flagships that bring in the big numbers...very few of these big budget Hollywood films have non-white actors in the starring roles. Supporting and secondary roles, yes; but not the lead actor.

    There isn't a shortage of talent when it comes to non-white actors or even good movies featuring non-white actors...my point is that as a whole, the entertainment industry doesn't give those actors or those movies even half the attention it gives to others.


    Back OT, I was a little shocked when Katniss agreed to have a final Hunger Games. I wasn't sure if she was still distraught or what but I thought it was a bit out of character...unless she was so depressed at that point she just wanted everyone to die! IIRC, the reaping would take place exclusively from the Capitol's residents, right?

    From that point in the book on to the end, that's where the story lost me a bit. The ending of Mockingjay was pretty disjointed and a little confusing...but up until that point I understood everything. I agree with whoever said District 13 was just a less brutal version of the Capitol. Everything was controlled and regulated and Katniss was just as much a prisoner there. It was a bigger picture kinda thing...

    I really liked Catching Fire; Mockingjay is my least favorite of the books but I still thought it was good.
    Last edited by kwanatic; 03-30-2012 at 08:20 PM.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theatregirl1122 View Post
    Me either. I had no problem with them except maybe Katniss agreeing to the Hunger Games. But I don't know if that was really a logical problem so much as it just annoyed me.
    I read it as Katniss was lying, so she will get a chance to kill the new President. B/c if she voted against the new Hunger Games, she will never be trusted (she wasn't really trusted as it stands) and gets a chance against Collins. That's why there was the long look btw her and the mentor.
    That was my take on the first reading.

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    But Katniss is the narrator. Generally if she's thinking something like that, we get to hear it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theatregirl1122 View Post
    But Katniss is the narrator. Generally if she's thinking something like that, we get to hear it.
    I agree. I think if she was planning something beforehand, she'd have mentioned it. I honestly think she was so distraught and lost at that point, all she wanted was for those Capitol people to be put through the same hell she had to endure twice. But when she got up there and was about to kill Snow, she realized (with Coin standing right next to him) that the cycle was about to start again: one person ruling everyone with an iron fist. She already knew Coin's agenda firsthand, and it wasn't like she was much better than Snow. I think Katniss reached that conclusion right before she was about to let the arrow fly, adjusted her aim and went for Coin. She did that with the intention of taking the nightlock immediately afterwards...of course they stopped her and everything got really confusing after that...

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    I really think she was thinking, just as it was in text, "Who cares?" I don't get any sense that she wanted revenge on the Capitol, that she was setting up Coin, or anything other than "Prim is dead, everything I have done up to this point is therefore moot, and now it's clear Snow doesn't matter because it's going on without him. Same $#!@, different day. Why not have another Hunger Games? This is probably how it started in the first place."

    Now, Johanna and Enobaria are clearly out for revenege--let them go through what we went through. Beetee's too rational, Annie's nuts and can't bear the thought, and Peeta remains consistent with his character all along. Haymitch is the one where I'm not quite sure why he voted yes. Revenge? Agreeing with Katniss?

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    I have figured out why the shaky camera work for the Katniss/Clove fight scene.... I have started to read the books and they clearly state that the tributes from districts 1 & 2 are larger than Katniss. But Isabelle Fuhrman, the actress playing Clove is only 15 and clearly smaller than Jennifer Lawrence/Katniss. Hence the shaky camera work, to hide the difference in size. It makes me wonder since Fuhrman is much more closer in size and age to Katniss, why she didn't get the role instead of Lawrence. Lawrence would have made a perfect Clove. But then again she must be a much more recognizable name, that's why she was preferred for the part.
    “Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none.” William Shakespeare

  10. #230
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    After finishing the book, I went and saw the movie today and I'd have to say they're both great. I missed some of the details left out from the book, but I understand why some of the compressions were made. I'd love to go back and read this thread, but I don't want to be spoiled on the other two books!

  11. #231
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    Furhman auditioned for Katniss and was told she was too young before they offered her Clove.

    I agree that she's very small for the part of Clove, but she was pretty convincing nevertheless. While I think she's clearly a talented actress, I don't think they could have picked better than Jennifer for Katniss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    Furhman auditioned for Katniss and was told she was too young before they offered her Clove.

    I agree that she's very small for the part of Clove, but she was pretty convincing nevertheless. While I think she's clearly a talented actress, I don't think they could have picked better than Jennifer for Katniss.
    Furhman's 14 and technically playing 18 (though they never specify Clove's age in the movie) while Lawrence is, what, 21 playing 16? They both worked for me.

    I don't mind her being smaller--Clove's the Knife Nut, so her skill doesn't actually rely on raw physical strength. Cato and Marvel MORE than make up for it...and I liked their choice for Glimmer--pretty but nuts.

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    The movie makes no effort to hide the fact that Clove is much smaller than the majority of the other Trubutes; every time you see her alongside anyone else she's a good head shorter. I think they were going for the small but deadly angle which worked. I never really envisioned Clove as this huge hulking wrestler of a female anyway.

    I think the shaky camera work can be explained away as one tactic to ensure a PG-13 rating. If you can't clearly see the brutality of the action, it's not as gruesome, right? Think about it. All the scenes that exhibit the most shake are the scary scenes; the blood bath, the feast and the mutts. It's a method I dearly wish they hadn't used, but I guess beggars can't be choosers.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by CantALoop View Post
    I haven't read the book, but my interpretation of the riot was that the Hunger Games were a tightly controlled event to keep the general populace docile and subservient.

    The tributes in the Hunger Games are expected to do what they are told: kill everyone. Based on the restlessness and looking around while the District 1/2(?) and Peeta alliance tried to sleep, it seemed that alliances formed during the Games were tenuous at best, and served only to carry a group to the final where they would turn on each other.

    Then along comes Katniss and Rue, who actually seemed to care for each other as people rather than competitors. I'm guessing that Katniss' actions were unprecedented among Hunger Games tributes, and that previous tributes did not pay respects or care about the fallen.

    Katniss' efforts to show genuine compassion were totally against the self-preservation, survival, and bloodlust expected of the tributes in the Games. Combined with the emotional death of Rue, District 11 sees Katniss' actions as one of free will and defiance, therefore spurring them to action. JMHO.
    I haven't read the books yet and just saw the movie last night. This was my interpretation as well. Also, it was pretty clear to me that Katniss was just acting with Peeta. I really enjoyed the movie. It was intense from start to finish and thought the casting was exceptional.
    "Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spareoom View Post
    The movie makes no effort to hide the fact that Clove is much smaller than the majority of the other Trubutes; every time you see her alongside anyone else she's a good head shorter. I think they were going for the small but deadly angle which worked. I never really envisioned Clove as this huge hulking wrestler of a female anyway.
    It's interesting to compare comments of those who were first exposed to the book compared to those who saw the film first. Granted, people like myself who saw the film first would accept everything because we had no previous preconceptions, but I find myself genuinely surprised that some people take issue with the differences in the film.

    I agree that a smaller frame made for a more threatening appearance. Part of what made Clove terrifying in the film was her agility and deadliness packaged in a disarming youthful, physically non-intimidating frame. Contrasted with a character like Rue, it made Clove all the more sinister and Rue all the more angelic. Furthermore, given her tendency to appear out of nowhere, I'd believe a small and deadly assassin over a hulking brute.

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    Yeah, I read the books and Clove was pretty much how I pictured her. I remember the line about her being bigger than Katniss but the fact that she was smaller in the movie didn't bother me and wasn't at all hard to believe.

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    Yeah, I just re-read HG last week, and it does mention that Clove is bigger than Katniss, hence her ability to pin her to the ground. However, I'm willing to overlook that fact because it's still realistic for Clove to be able to best Katniss in hand-to-hand combat because she would have had years of training on how to pin a victim, whereas I doubt Katniss has ever had to wrestle anyone or anything. Katniss is only deadly from a distance; even she knows that if she gets jumped, she's as good as dead.

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    I kind of went halfway--I read the books after seeing the trailer and ancillary materials for the movie. So even if I had somehow lacked the reading comprehension to get that Rue and Thresh have "dark brown skin" I would have pictured them as black. (Seriously, internet? THIS you're mad about?) It made envisioning things in the book easier, except for the occasional dissonance like book!Haymitch being dark-haired.

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    Well, for some reason I missed the fact that Suzanne Collins said pretty clearly that Rue and Thresh were black (what can I say; I'm a speed reader), but that being said, I probably could have figured it out on my own considering where District 11 is said to be located. And the casting was fine. Dunno what people got their knickers in a twist over.

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    I'm going to see the movie on Friday! I didn't want to deal with the initial crowds and rush to see it, so hopefully I've waited long enough. Very much looking forward to it.

    I didn't catch the information about Rue and Thresh being black, nor even about where the districts were located, but it makes sense in retrospect. Now I'm off to check out maps of where the districts all are to see if it makes more sense to me.

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