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  1. #1
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    6.0 vs IJS as a skater

    (I'm not sure if this topic should be here or in the Trash Can, so if you could also tell me that, then I'll repost it there if needed.)

    I know there are probably 50 other topics about IJS vs 6.0, but I want everyone's ideas as a skater: Do you like being scored with IJS or with 6.0 better?

    I'm competing IJS for the first time in two weeks, and I've only ever been scored with 6.0 before. I don't like how biased 6.0 can be. One time I accidentally stepped on a judge's foot with my skates on (I had guards on, and I was only 10 years old, I weighed less than 60 lbs then), and ever since then, which was 5 years ago, not only does this judge give me dirty looks, but she never once has placed me first in an event. I hate how biased the judges can be with 6.0, and in my somewhat small skating community, the judges I have for one competition are the ones that have tested me since I was testing pre-preliminary freeskate, and the ones that I've had for nearly every competition for 6 1/2 years!

    So, I think I'll like competing IJS because it's harder for one judge to be biased against you. I don't know yet though. So what are your opinions, do you like being scored with IJS or 6.0 better? Pros and cons to each? Thanks!

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    I don't like 6.0. My level is not scored in IJS in the US, and internationally we seem to score in the single digits with the best getting 12-20 points. Many of the things I do wouldn't count- half jumps, and most sit spins won't get called as such.

    Still, I know where the points come from.

    In 6.0- no idea. Is it better to do a toe loop that isn't cheated, or a crappy flip? Can you do a forward scratch spin and a forward back spin in the same program- most 6.0 judges say yes, but in an IJS mindset, it isn't allowed. But 6.0 doesn't spell it out!

    I like IJS because I know where the points come from, and I can see why competitors beat me. 6.0 is a TOTAL mystery. Especially when you get protocols that have you first and eighth in the same program. Uh- what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I like IJS because I know where the points come from, and I can see why competitors beat me. 6.0 is a TOTAL mystery.
    I agree, with 6.0, you can't tell what it is that got you last place, which is another reason I think I'll like IJS- you see if you need to work on PCS or on technical.

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    As a judge it is great. You get feedback on your own judging performance.

    Most skaters I know love it for the feedback they get from their protocols. Which means they can see why they might have received a lower or higher GOE. Identifying that jumps are underrotated or off the wrong edges gives them pointers on what they need to improve on. And most are pretty happy when they get positive GOEs because they know they are doing something right.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    I prefer 6.0. Putting a program together for the first time under CoP is fustrating, as I dont feel that I am showcasing my best elements, and adding in positions that aren't perfect to get points. sigh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    I prefer 6.0. Putting a program together for the first time under CoP is fustrating, as I dont feel that I am showcasing my best elements, and adding in positions that aren't perfect to get points. sigh.
    If you have never been judged under IJS then don't worry about levels. Just aim for good GOEs and a clean performance.

    Seriously I don't know why skaters stress out so much about levels. I know here they have taken out levels for many of the lower levels to encourage skaters to do good quality elements. Because how can you aim for levels when you don't have good basics?
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    IJS. But it's still annoying when they use the PCS or GOE unfairly to put skaters where they want them.... trying to 6.0 the new system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    If you have never been judged under IJS then don't worry about levels. Just aim for good GOEs and a clean performance.

    Seriously I don't know why skaters stress out so much about levels. I know here they have taken out levels for many of the lower levels to encourage skaters to do good quality elements. Because how can you aim for levels when you don't have good basics?
    I agree with the idea, but, I would want the maximum amount of points possible, so adding the extra little things are annoying... also, it makes me sad to not be able to have a spiral sequence and a step sequence in the sp.

    I think skaters need to learn the things required at lower levels also though. It seems that Australian skaters do suffer a bit in the spins department.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spazactaz View Post
    IJS. But it's still annoying when they use the PCS or GOE unfairly to put skaters where they want them.... trying to 6.0 the new system.
    So what is the difference then? 6.0 is totally a placement system. We still use it here for judging beginning skaters because we don't have an IJS version for the beginning skaters. You rate the skaters in order of which ones you think are best. At least under IJS it is a lot more transparent than what it would be under 6.0 and there is a lot more objectivity about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    I agree with the idea, but, I would want the maximum amount of points possible, so adding the extra little things are annoying... also, it makes me sad to not be able to have a spiral sequence and a step sequence in the sp.

    I think skaters need to learn the things required at lower levels also though. It seems that Australian skaters do suffer a bit in the spins department.
    I don't know. The problems I see with lower level skaters are mainly in the flying spins but that is normal for developing skaters and totally expected. I don't think generally the standard of Australian spinning is that bad.

    But as for worrying about getting points, at the end of the day it should be about your own personal performance and how you feel on the ice. If you haven't skated under IJS before I would be more concerned with what GOEs you will get for elements because that is going to give you better feedback than levels. Because whilst you might get a higher level on an element, at the end of the day if it isn't good quality, the level is going to be irrelevant because they judges will take off on the GOE.

    I do think many skaters get so tied up with systems they forget the reasons why they started skating. And that is for the feeling it gives them and why they enjoy it so much.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    It seems that Australian skaters do suffer a bit in the spins department.
    Not only Australians, a lot of skaters in the US have amazing jumps and mediocre spins, I'm just talking about preliminary, pre-juvenile, juvenile level skaters. I feel like my spins are so basic compared to my jumps, like I can't get 8 revolutions on a camel spin without falling over, and I can't do a layback without falling on my head, and so on. I kind of wish that our current generation of coaches (for lack of better words) would put more emphasis on excellent spins, I feel a lot of skaters at lower levels, and some higher levels, need better spins.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    So what is the difference then? 6.0 is totally a placement system. We still use it here for judging beginning skaters because we don't have an IJS version for the beginning skaters. You rate the skaters in order of which ones you think are best. At least under IJS it is a lot more transparent than what it would be under 6.0 and there is a lot more objectivity about it.


    I don't know. The problems I see with lower level skaters are mainly in the flying spins but that is normal for developing skaters and totally expected. I don't think generally the standard of Australian spinning is that bad.

    But as for worrying about getting points, at the end of the day it should be about your own personal performance and how you feel on the ice. If you haven't skated under IJS before I would be more concerned with what GOEs you will get for elements because that is going to give you better feedback than levels. Because whilst you might get a higher level on an element, at the end of the day if it isn't good quality, the level is going to be irrelevant because they judges will take off on the GOE.

    I do think many skaters get so tied up with systems they forget the reasons why they started skating. And that is for the feeling it gives them and why they enjoy it so much.

    I definitely agree with focusing on getting a good GOE that struggling for the higher level... I often find my self practising a layback that goes into a hideous beilman, and I've wondered if it would be better to do a perfect layback in just the classic position, then into a side lean etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    I definitely agree with focusing on getting a good GOE that struggling for the higher level... I often find my self practising a layback that goes into a hideous beilman, and I've wondered if it would be better to do a perfect layback in just the classic position, then into a side lean etc.
    Would you rather have level 1 or 2 with 0 or positive GOE, or level 2 or 3 with negative GOE?

    What other feature(s) can you do? Remember that if you only do one feature, it's still level 1, so you don't gain any points for the elements unless it enhances the GOE. If it lowers the GOE don't do it.

    If it's a choice between Biellmann or side lean because you can't do both, then do the one you do better.

    No reason not to practice all your options in hopes of perfecting and eventually adding more features for future competitions. But you're better off including now only the features you can do well now.

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    I would want the one which looks the nicest... but I would also want the maximum score possible, because I don't believe in entering a competition unless you intend to win/be competitive.

    I personally find more beillmann positions hideous, however, if doing one is the difference in score, then one becomes tempted to perform a move that they dont personally like, just for the points.

    I would only feel comfortable putting in elements that are good.

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    If you check ISU Communication 1611 it will tell you what the various levels of elements are worth as a base and then how much gets taken off the base when it goes into a negative GOE.

    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db/isu_f...omms.php?all=1

    The other risk you run, unless you are absolutely certain that your spin is a good one and the transitions to achieve the levels work, then you may not achieve the levels and because the spin is messy and transitions don't work, you will get marked down by the judges. So you will end up not getting the levels you want or good GOEs. And if you totally stuff it up you won't get any credit for the spin at all. I have heard so many skaters or coaches complain that their spin should have got a particular level when in fact they just didn't fulfill the requirements.

    As for entering a competition with the intention of winning, that is fine but the reality is there is only ever going to be one winner. The goal should always be to go for a personal best and be satisfied with your performance. If you win then that is the cherry on top.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    I would want the one which looks the nicest... but I would also want the maximum score possible, because I don't believe in entering a competition unless you intend to win/be competitive.
    The point is that the Biellmann position is one feature. Changing between sideways and backward is one feature.

    If those are the only two features you can do, you have to do both to get level 2.

    If you can do only one of those features, you'll still get level 1. One feature doesn't get you a higher level, regardless of which feature it is. Biellmann itself does not automatically earn more points -- it contributes the same to earning higher levels as any other feature.

    If you can do both of those features and a third feature (e.g., 8 revolutions in one position, or hold another difficult position such as haircutter for >2 revs before going to the Biellmann), then you can get level 3.

    If you can do either the Biellmann or the sideways but not both and also a third feature, then you can get level 2 but you'd have to choose whether to do the Biellmann or the sideways.

    So once you figure out which two features you can do together, or whether you're capable of doing three features in the same spin, then you have to decide which combination of features is going to increase the level without decreasing the GOE.

    What you do NOT want to do is add only one feature that will reduce the quality, since one feature will not give you a higher level. You'd get more points by leaving it out.

    Nor do you want to add two features if you can't do them both well enough to get credit for both, as Aussie Willy says, because then you will not get the level you're aiming for and you would also lose GOE. You'd get more points by leaving them out.

    I personally find more beillmann positions hideous, however, if doing one is the difference in score, then one becomes tempted to perform a move that they dont personally like, just for the points.
    It's only a difference in score if you get credit for it AND also get credit for at least one other feature AND you don't lose more than grade of GOE. So you have to evaluate how well you typically do each of the features to decide whether adding the feature is likely to increase or decrease your point total.

    Maybe you already understand this completely, but just to reiterate for anyone who isn't familiar with the rules and just thinks that Biellmann automatically means more points:

    Biellmann without any other feature, or Biellmann held for less than 2 revolutions will NOT gain more points because it will not raise the level. If it looks bad or slows down the spin or loses the center it will LOSE total points on the spin, guaranteed.

    Biellmann for at least 2 revs plus at least one other feature will RAISE the level. But if it looks bad or slows down the spin or loses the center you might lose more in GOE than you gain in base value.

    Practice all your features, evaluate your typical quality, and then choose wisely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    The point is that the Biellmann position is one feature. Changing between sideways and backward is one feature.

    If those are the only two features you can do, you have to do both to get level 2.

    If you can do only one of those features, you'll still get level 1. One feature doesn't get you a higher level, regardless of which feature it is. Biellmann itself does not automatically earn more points -- it contributes the same to earning higher levels as any other feature.

    If you can do both of those features and a third feature (e.g., 8 revolutions in one position, or hold another difficult position such as haircutter for >2 revs before going to the Biellmann), then you can get level 3.

    If you can do either the Biellmann or the sideways but not both and also a third feature, then you can get level 2 but you'd have to choose whether to do the Biellmann or the sideways.

    So once you figure out which two features you can do together, or whether you're capable of doing three features in the same spin, then you have to decide which combination of features is going to increase the level without decreasing the GOE.

    What you do NOT want to do is add only one feature that will reduce the quality, since one feature will not give you a higher level. You'd get more points by leaving it out.

    Nor do you want to add two features if you can't do them both well enough to get credit for both, as Aussie Willy says, because then you will not get the level you're aiming for and you would also lose GOE. You'd get more points by leaving them out.



    It's only a difference in score if you get credit for it AND also get credit for at least one other feature AND you don't lose more than grade of GOE. So you have to evaluate how well you typically do each of the features to decide whether adding the feature is likely to increase or decrease your point total.

    Maybe you already understand this completely, but just to reiterate for anyone who isn't familiar with the rules and just thinks that Biellmann automatically means more points:

    Biellmann without any other feature, or Biellmann held for less than 2 revolutions will NOT gain more points because it will not raise the level. If it looks bad or slows down the spin or loses the center it will LOSE total points on the spin, guaranteed.

    Biellmann for at least 2 revs plus at least one other feature will RAISE the level. But if it looks bad or slows down the spin or loses the center you might lose more in GOE than you gain in base value.

    Practice all your features, evaluate your typical quality, and then choose wisely.

    i can do lay back, side lean, hair cutter, beillman.

    my point it, is annoys me to do all the extra positions, becuause i think the classic layback is prettier, but, alas, it would be foolish to miss out on points.


    I dont understand the "no feedback" argument for 6.0... I used to get feedback after each competition from judges about what could be improved etc.
    Last edited by AndyWarhol; 02-12-2012 at 11:13 PM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    I dont understand the "no feedback" argument for 6.0... I used to get feedback after each competition from judges about what could be improved etc.
    But that is only if the judges take the time to talk to you about it.
    And, because there is no firm "your flip had an edge call" in the score, it is difficult to know what to fix, because it may not be an issue for the next judge. Some judges may prefer easier, but clean jumps, others may prefer harder, but maybe slightly imperfect jumps. 6.0 doesn't quantify these things. So unless you are just looking for "overall" improvement (always a good thing), the feedback you get from one judge in 6.0 may not apply to the next competition if the judges are different. In IJS, the levels and point values are set, even the GOE bullets are defined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    I dont understand the "no feedback" argument for 6.0... I used to get feedback after each competition from judges about what could be improved etc.
    Then you've been very VERY fortunate. Over 5 or 6 years competing under 6.0(a total of probably 25-30 competitions), I only had the opportunity to get feedback from a judge ONE time! (And even that wasn't very useful, because they just spoke very generally ('try to improve your speed") (duh!) - they didn't break down each element or give me any specific suggestions on particular elements.)

    I vastly prefer skating under IJS, because of the detailed feedback you get. You can look at your details AND your competitors' details and see *exactly* where you gained and lost points and *exactly* what you need to improve to place better next time.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    I definitely agree with focusing on getting a good GOE that struggling for the higher level... I often find my self practising a layback that goes into a hideous beilman, and I've wondered if it would be better to do a perfect layback in just the classic position, then into a side lean etc.
    As an adult skater, I used to think this too. Until I quickly learned that the judges were VERY stingy about giving any GEO at all on something an adult skater did. So now the adults go for the levels. Which sucks, IMO, because I'd rather do a pretty spin with fewer positions than twist my 40 year old body into a bunch of positions I can't do as well just to get points.
    In my spare time, I like to interview figure skating legends.

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    Having judged many adult skaters, I have never really given anything higher than a +1 (maybe a +2 for an ex-competitive skater who still maintained their skating ability, particularly the spins). I think if an adult is getting base they are doing pretty well.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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