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  1. #1
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    Toe Jumps: ‘Pole-vaulting action.’

    Question, please, for those who will indulge me.

    I see the, 'pole-valutiing action,' terminology used by John Misha Petkevich in his book, Figure Skating: Championship Techniques.

    Does thus 'placing' the pick in the ice for a toe jump mean pushing it into the ice stiff-legged--literally to pole-vault--or planting it in the ice to pull oneself up by their leg?

    Thanks a ton,
    Ol’ Scratchspin

  2. #2
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    Pole vaulting isn't a bad analogy.

    I've worked long and hard to get a toe loop that wasn't cheated (it is barely off the ice, but it isn't cheated!). I think the jump happens more with the non-picking leg, it's all about pivoting around and "kicking a soccer ball". The toe assist is just an assist, it isn't wear the jump happens.

    I haven't done as much on the flip, but same sort of thing, you use the pick to help push you off the ground, but it is the knee of the other leg that really makes the jump.

  3. #3
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    Going into a toe jump, you point the toes of your picking foot and keep them pointing straight down, just a little above the ice as you reach way back with a straight picking leg. Place the pick into the ice and pull back and up in one smooth motion. Your knee is bound to bend a little as you do this, but you won't feel it. Arch your back and pull back instead of leaning forward, since this will help transfer the weight from your takeoff edge to your picking toe as you leave the ice. The picking toe is the last thing to leave the ice.

    This slow-motion video of Yuna Kim's double axel-triple toe is a great example of a good triple toe takeoff (borrowed from another thread in this forum):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xEGhU0dMPg

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    Much appreciated you two. Feed me peanuts and call me Dumbo. That put the snap in my jumps today to give me my toe loop, flip, and a two-footed lutz. Had a good loop for a while now, so it was just a matter of building on that. Thanks again.

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    Whatever you do, don't jab your foot into the ice. I think this is really bad technique and it screws up the ice (big holes). Also, you could end up really hurting your toe. The toe is just an assist.

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    But still, the foot that's on the edge needs to leave the ice a split second before the picking foot. This has been my struggle -- not to turn the flip and flutz into toe-assisted salchows.

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    The pole-vaulting analogy doesn't work for me, mostly because I am scared of heights and it terrifies me even to watch pole-vaulting. So I don't need anything else to make me scared of jumping!

    I can get a nice snap most days on the toe loop, but I'm still working to get that same feel on the flip.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    But still, the foot that's on the edge needs to leave the ice a split second before the picking foot. This has been my struggle -- not to turn the flip and flutz into toe-assisted salchows.
    If your flip tends to turn into a toe-assisted salchow, you might be leaning forward as you pick, which prevents you from transferring the weight to the picking toe and pulling back, then up. What always helped me on flips and lutzes was imagining someone was pulling me backward from my bra strap, right between my shoulder blades. As you reach back to pick, focus on keeping your weight on the heel of your skating foot, pulling your picking side shoulder back, and squeezing your shoulder blades together. Then pick-pull-back-and-up all in one sweeping motion, lifting the thigh of the non-picking leg as you do so.

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    Toe jumps a basic term in itself...

    Most high level coaches and technicians refer to toe jumps as "toe-assisted jumps"....
    This fits in with the analogy of the pole volt... in my experience this is mostly applicable to toe loops...

    The imagery of the pole vault is meant to convey the feeling of assisting in directing the power of the jumping leg....not that the toe hits stiff into the ice like a vault...

    In most cases this analogy is used with older skaters who can apply the imagery to their technique. With younger skaters (some exceptions of course) it tends to cause the skater to place their weight on the free leg as it digs and then twist which in most case results in a "toe axel"...
    Which for anyone wondering is when the take off of the toeloop is delayed until completely forward so that essentially it becomes an axel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AusTechSpec View Post
    Toe jumps a basic term in itself...

    Most high level coaches and technicians refer to toe jumps as "toe-assisted jumps"....
    And most skaters call them "toe jumps". You could have made your point just fine without the snotty insult at the beginning of your post.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    And most skaters call them "toe jumps". You could have made your point just fine without the snotty insult at the beginning of your post.
    dude, there was no insult intended, at all....
    Toe jump is the basic term in itself... Where do you find the snotty insult there?
    The only reason I was trying to explain that is to help explain the analogy of a pole vault... But you knew all this, you are just still reacting to our disagreement in another thread... Amazing how well you hold a grudge...

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by AusTechSpec View Post
    dude, there was no insult intended, at all....
    Toe jump is the basic term in itself... Where do you find the snotty insult there?
    The only reason I was trying to explain that is to help explain the analogy of a pole vault... But you knew all this, you are just still reacting to our disagreement in another thread... Amazing how well you hold a grudge...
    If you don't think calling something a "basic term" and then explaining the "higher level" terminology isn't snotty, you really have an attitude problem.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    If you don't think calling something a "basic term" and then explaining the "higher level" terminology isn't snotty, you really have an attitude problem.
    But that's what it is.... What are you worried the words are going get offended?

    It was clearly not directed at anyone, and it very clearly has no snottiness in it.
    But people will see what they want to, and I know that you have a problem with me personally, which is why you are acting like a child here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AusTechSpec View Post
    But that's what it is....

    It was clearly not directed at anyone, and it very clearly has no snottiness in it.
    But people will see what they want to
    Yes, they will see that you can't accept any opinion that isn't the same as yours.

    and I know that you have a problem with me personally, which is why you are acting like a child here.
    That you would even claim to know what I think shows how ridiculous your posts are.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Yes, they will see that you can't accept any opinion that isn't the same as yours.



    That you would even claim to know what I think shows how ridiculous your posts are.
    There is no point in arguing with you...

  16. #16
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    Having worked more on the flip, I would say pole vaulting is actually a faulty analogy. You really need to bend the picking leg as you draw back, and pole vaulting makes me think stick straight. Getting that leg to bend is so hard for me. I want it to bend backwards...

    My coach tells me it bends on the toe loop too, but I guess I do it subconciously.

  17. #17
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    FWIW, I've been to coaching seminars with Olympic coaches presenting and they don't use the longer phrase unless they're making a point. Not a point about someone's ignorance of terms, but to emphasize the fact that the toe-in is not a bit of fancy footwork; it's an integral part of the jump. It is the more-formal term and has been for many, many years. YMMV

    Traditionally, skaters keep the free leg extended, laces down, toe pointed with a straight knee before the pick-in. When the skater toes in, they bend the picking knee, shift their weight to that side, and pull the gliding foot back on the proper edge towards the picking foot. I teach this as reach-pick-pull-pop.

    However, there's always more than one way to accomplish something in skating. Some coaches today advocate a bent-knee picking method that takes place with the free leg close to the picking foot, to expedite the jump entry and prevent edge calls. In a way, it's the last part of the traditional reach-pick-pull-jump method.

    In any case, the picking knee needs to bend, then straighten to effect the takeoff. Injury risk aside, it provides the explosive push off the ice needed to get good height on jumps.

    Going back to the pole vault analogy: there's a lot of bending taking place there as well. The pole itself is springy and bends as the vaulter applies his/her weight. (Today's vaulters use very-stiff poles, but back in the day, the poles were more springy.) It then straightens to "throw" the jumper into the air on the same line. The jumper needs to stay straight and balanced as they jump. In skating, it's very similar, so the analogy works. Of course, we land on one narrow piece of metal attached to the bottom of our boot and pole vaulters land on their backs in a pile of cushions, lol.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzw2pTrra_M

    When I first heard the "vault" term used to describe a toe-assisted takeoff, I assumed it referred to gymnastics vaults, which are very different and (imo) not comparable.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voDpPBtpmwM
    Last edited by FigureSpins; 07-05-2012 at 03:42 PM.

  18. #18

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    I've had problems with the toe action on the toe-loop for a long time. For some reason when I try to pick, my left leg is really turned out so the toe pick kind of goes in at an angle instead of straight up and down. I end up with too much of the blade picking instead of the actual toe-pick. I don't have the same problem on the flip or the lutz and can pick straight up and down.

    I enter my toe-loop from a RFI three turn and I wondered if I changed my entry to a LFO then stepped onto the right foot if it would stop me turning out so much but it hasn't really helped.

    It's frustrated me for ages - I feel really stupid for having such a terrible toe-loop when it's supposed to be one of the easier jumps.

  19. #19

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    ahg. toe-loops are my worst jump. so awkward!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnnieD View Post

    It's frustrated me for ages - I feel really stupid for having such a terrible toe-loop when it's supposed to be one of the easier jumps.
    It took me over a year to correct my toe waltz habit. It might be an "easier" jump, but there are lots of ways to do it wrong.

    Currently, I'm being told I pick too close and too 'across'. So now I want to pick further away and straight back. This was a group substitute though, so I want to ask my actual coach, since he has been pretty positive about my toe loops.

    For my (still non-existant) flip, he has been telling me to stop hammering the ice, pointing out if I even jump, it likely won't even be a full single, and I'm picking for a strong triple. LOL.

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