View Poll Results: Should top 10 at Worlds supersede Nationals results for a 4CC spot?

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  • Never

    14 14.89%
  • Only in case of equipment failure or illness

    16 17.02%
  • Sometimes- depending on GP and other results and Nationals

    40 42.55%
  • Only if that top 10 skater medaled at Worlds

    12 12.77%
  • Always

    12 12.77%
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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    I'm not sure what team sports you're thinking of. Team sports such basketball, soccer, baseball, softball, and volleyball have more than three members on a team and, of necessity, the selection process for the Olympics and World Championships is highly subjective. It's usually even more subjective in judged sports, especially those that have a team competition, like gymnastics.
    Okay, I withdraw my comparison to team sports. But I stand by the rest of my post.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by haribobo View Post
    Plug Armin's Avatar FS from Skate America 2010 in to Nationals rather than that very boring program he actually did and it would have made all the difference. That Kill Bill program totally sunk him IMO.
    I still think that Armin should have been 1st Alternate and, therefore, going to 4CC, but I have to agree that the Avatar program was far superior to Kill Bill. It didn't suit him well.

  3. #23
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    Upon further consideration, I think finishing nineteenth at the previous season's U.S. Nationals ought to earn one a place on the team.

  4. #24
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    My issue with this was that it would be one thing if Armin was 4th and Ricky was 6th or something (although I know many would still have had a problem with that too) but it's especially egregious to send someone who came in 13th. I think it's one thing to take previous results into account to some extent, but this is just like ignoring Nationals altogether.

  5. #25

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    And the result is someone who who finished 14th in the LP at 4CC's, with the third lowest TES in the event, with only Mark Webster & Jeremy Ten lower.

  6. #26

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    Well now that things have unfolded as they did, I think USFS committee has learned a good lesson. I don't think they've ever done something like this before nor are they likely to do it again anytime soon. Still think Ricky's spot was partially justified by 1) his good FS at Nationals, 2) his pretty good SB score, and 3) his strong finish at Worlds season, but logistically it seems that Ricky maybe wasn't mentally at his best after Nationals nor does it sound like he was prepared for altitude. Armin's training in Co Springs probably could've come in handy for him here. But, maybe this will provide more incentive for Armin to get a better FS next year and also work towards stronger skates at his international events so he is more seriously considered in the future. The world will keep on spinning as long as everyone is learning from their mistakes.

  7. #27

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    I absolutely agree that learning from mistakes is necessary.

    Both for federations, skaters, and fans.

  8. #28
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    Unfortunate outcome.

    But seriously - last year they went with the Nationals result, left Abbott home and lost their 3rd spot. This year they took everything into consideration, made Dornbush the 1st alternate and he didn't deliver when he got to go.

    I actually think they did the right thing this time. It's just an unfortunate outcome. If he had made top 5 somehow, people would be over it already.

  9. #29
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    ^apples and oranges IMO.

  10. #30

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    The difference was sending the 3rd vs the 4th place guy last year, with about 6 weeks for the 4th place guy to get in shape.

    This year, it's the 4th place guy vs the 13th place guy with about a week and a half to get in shape. Plus the event is where the 4th place guy trains at altitude, and the 13th guy trains nearer sea level.

    If you want to know what they should have done last year in my silly opinion:

    Bradley-send him to Worlds (winner always goes in the US)
    Dornbush-send him to Jr. Worlds to win the title & 4CCs for senior experience
    Miner-ineligible for Jr Worlds; send him to Worlds & 4CCs, because he needed senior experience in prep for Worlds
    Abbott- send him to Worlds & 4CCs, if he wants 4CCs. If not, send Bradley to 4CCs, or Rippon to 4CC's.

    But that was a solution no one considered. And it would have been better for all the skaters, except Armin who was 6th. Armin probably should have been first alternate at both Worlds & 4CCs in this scenario.
    Last edited by DORISPULASKI; 02-11-2012 at 05:14 PM.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Unfortunate outcome.

    But seriously - last year they went with the Nationals result, left Abbott home and lost their 3rd spot. This year they took everything into consideration, made Dornbush the 1st alternate and he didn't deliver when he got to go.

    I actually think they did the right thing this time. It's just an unfortunate outcome. If he had made top 5 somehow, people would be over it already.
    I don't think you can compare those two. Abbott was a former US champion, former GPF champion, and a top 4-10 finisher at worlds. There was not a very big risk in sending him vs. sending two totally inexperienced skaters (Dornbush and Miner) to worlds. Bradley earned his spot by winning the nationals, but his chances of winning a world medal were close to nil, so the second spot had to go to a strong, well established skater like Abbott.He would have replaced either #3 or #2, which is not a big jump in standings. Armin has been a good skater who has risen in ranks, so it's not like his placement was a fluke. It was no more of a fluke than Dornbush and Miner placing higher than Abbott last year. Actually the latter was a big fluke.

    This time what they did was not even close to logical. Dornbush very clearly struggled and placed 13th overall. Armin was 4th. There is a huge gap between the standings and the performances they delivered. It made no sense at all to make Dornbush the 1st alternate over a skater that just missed the bronze. If they really wanted to give him a chance, they could have made him the 3rd alternate for 4CC. This was not just an "unfortunate outcome". It had to be expected, based on what we saw at the nationals.

    I hope the USFSA has learned its lesson, but politics will never die, so we may still see some strange selections.

  12. #32

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    I think that whatever the USFS decides, it needs to have some hard and fast rules. I'm sure that Ricky felt himself under extra pressure precisely because of the controversy surrounding the choice ... and that probably didn't help him any. If he was secured the spot under strict rules, so there wasn't a lot of controversy (or at least, the controversy centered on the merits of the USFS's rule, not the skater), it would have made things easier for all concerned.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    The difference was sending the 3rd vs the 4th place guy last year, with about 6 weeks for the 4th place guy to get in shape.

    This year, it's the 4th place guy vs the 13th place guy with about a week and a half to get in shape. Plus the event is where the 4th place guy trains at altitude, and the 13th guy trains nearer sea level.

    If you want to know what they should have done last year in my silly opinion:

    Bradley-send him to Worlds (winner always goes in the US)
    Dornbush-send him to Jr. Worlds to win the title & 4CCs for senior experience
    Miner-ineligible for Jr Worlds; send him to Worlds & 4CCs, because he needed senior experience in prep for Worlds
    Abbott- send him to Worlds & 4CCs, if he wants 4CCs. If not, send Bradley to 4CCs, or Rippon to 4CC's.

    But that was a solution no one considered. And it would have been better for all the skaters, except Armin who was 6th. Armin probably should have been first alternate at both Worlds & 4CCs in this scenario.
    Armin was eligible for JW last season. IMO the assignments should have been.

    Worlds:
    Bradley
    Miner
    Abbott

    4CC:
    Dornbush
    Miner
    Rippon

    JW:
    Dornbush
    Mahbanoozedah
    Brown or Aaron

  14. #34
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    no, it shouldn't, why-if they u.s. lady can't handle national or any other disciplian than they can't handle the 4cc.

    besides than the year of the olympics --they shouldn't be able to opt out if make olympic team in times past.

    top ten at worlds last year helps maybe-but it depends on how well fight for it at their nationals.
    placement at nationals for me trumps unless result is way close

    but it depends on who the u.s. figure skating wants to send regardless of what i think.

    sometimes they know who to send it best.

  15. #35

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    So Im curious now - do all the people who supported sending Ricky now think we should send Zhang to Worlds instead of Zadawski?

  16. #36
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    Alissa Czisny is going to Worlds; Agnes Zawadzki is 1st alternate.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Alissa Czisny is going to Worlds; Agnes Zawadzki is 1st alternate.
    Oh that's right - we only get two dont we? Well, even better analogy then. Should Zhang be the first alternate instead of Zawadzki?

  18. #38
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    Yeah, in all the hullaballoo over Caroline and Ashley, everyone seems to have clean forgotten about Alissa Czisny, lol.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    My personal opinion: I think the top three at Nationals should go to Worlds (or Olys), period. And I stick to that even if it leaves out my favorite skaters.

    Why? Because Nationals is a pressure event (assuming that a spot on the Worlds or Oly team is on the line). I believe that skaters should be able to deliver when it counts. If they can't do that, why should they be given special treatment? (Exception: a situation like Nancy Kerrigan's in '94.)

    Besides, put yourself in the position of the person who delivered when it counted, yet got booted for a favored skater who blew it. Discouraging doesn't even begin to describe it.

    For that matter, maybe and Worlds and Olympics should have the competition, take a look at the results and then assign the medals to the skaters, based on the year's performances instead of the actual competition.


    This ^^

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spareoom View Post
    Yeah, in all the hullaballoo over Caroline and Ashley, everyone seems to have clean forgotten about Alissa Czisny, lol.
    It's probably better for her not having the attention and pressure. Sending Ashley and Caroline to 4CC was a brilliant plan, let Caroline and Agnes be rewarded for their efforts at Nationals, and finish the season on a high, Ashley gets momentum and confidence from international judges before going into worlds, and Alissa can get a grip on her nerves without the attention. Very wise.

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