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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by martian_girl View Post
    Mostly, it has just given them the option of using the same five "safe" music choices over and over.
    Sorry, but this argument doesn't wash. The boring music choices are not because skaters can't use vocal music. If vocals were allowed, how do you know that there wouldn't be "the same five 'safe' music choices" used over and over again, except that they would be five pieces with vocals?
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  2. #82

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    Celine Dion, Josh Groban, Mariah Carey, Katy Perry, Justin Bieber, The Carpenters, Captain and Tenille, Tony Orlando and Dawn, The Association, Phil Collins, Chris Cross, Terry Jacks

  3. #83
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    ^^^
    LOL

    I'm not sure Carmen, e.g., is "in the public domain." Wouldn't there be a copyright on each recording of it?

    That said, I'm a judge and I do find it somewhat distracting to hear words while judging. I assume that, as it becomes more common (allowed in U.S. through Intermediate or maybe Novice), I'll get used to it.

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave of the North View Post
    Celine Dion, Josh Groban, Mariah Carey, Katy Perry, Justin Bieber, The Carpenters, Captain and Tenille, Tony Orlando and Dawn, The Association, Phil Collins, Chris Cross, Terry Jacks

    Cole Porter. Franz Schubert. Bob Dylan. Paul McCartney. Joni Mitchell. Stephen Foster. Paul Simon. Irving Berlin. George and Ira Gershwin. Edith Piaf. Mozart. Rossini. Puccini. Kurt Weill. Oscar Hammerstein Jr.

    I'm sure I can dig up another million or two possibilities if you need them.

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    Cole Porter. Franz Schubert. Bob Dylan. Paul McCartney. Joni Mitchell. Stephen Foster. Paul Simon. Irving Berlin. George and Ira Gershwin. Edith Piaf. Mozart. Rossini. Puccini. Kurt Weill. Oscar Hammerstein Jr.

    I'm sure I can dig up another million or two possibilities if you need them.
    Yes, you can, and I can, and many others of us can. . . but the majority of elite skaters, apparently, cannot.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilJen View Post
    Yes, you can, and I can, and many others of us can. . . but the majority of elite skaters, apparently, cannot.
    There may be a run on Led Zellepin and Metallica here in the U.S. for the guys.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by morqet View Post
    Completely irrational of me, but I've always liked that the skating order at Worlds/Europeans/4CC doesn't just follow the order from the SP. Somehow makes it more exciting to see who gets drawn where, and so often it stops the whole thing feeling like a procession towards crowning the person who won the short as the person who wins overall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's not irrational. It removes the random factor and it will make the "higher PCS, the later you skate" trend even more entrenched, probably. :/
    ITA. This is the one rule change that makes me the most, to be honest. My main thing is that I think it will majorly affect the excitement and tension of a competition. If the skaters all skate in reverse order, then every single time the marks come up the skater will either be in their "alloted spot", i.e. no movement, or they will go down the rankings. Nobody will EVER get their score and see that they have moved up, and have the excitement/exhilaration that comes with that realisation. And that for me is reason enough to keep the draw random within the groups.

    (Case in point - Sarah Meier winning the gold at 2011 Euros. She was in 3rd after the SP so if this reverse order rule was in place then, she'd have just seen that she was in her "alloted spot" with two skaters to go. Nice to know she'd got a medal, but that's it so far. Whereas the way it was, she happened to draw last and we got one of the most endearing reactions to a score/placement that there's been in a long time. You know, the kind of stuff that people remember and that audiences love. Don't take that away, ISU!)

    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    If vocals were allowed, in a few years we would have nothing but skaters acting out the words of a song. And we already have that. It's called Disney on Ice.
    I kind of agree. The creative skaters will be fine, but the not-so-creative ones will likely end up acting out the words rather than at least trying to interpret the rhythm. Tim Goebel and Elvis Stojko always seemed to do that in exhibitions - at least in competition they used the music itself a little more.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosha View Post
    There may be a run on Led Zellepin and Metallica here in the U.S. for the guys.
    "The Lemon Song"

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by martian_girl View Post
    Doesn't the whole vocals/no vocals argument really boil down to your own personal taste?

    It really has nothing to do with sport or art or whatever. Many skaters will still choose music with no vocals, many will like the option of using it. Some will choose absolute trash, some will chose wisely.

    At the end of the day its an arcane rule that doesn't add anything to the sport and exists only because figure skating purists are afraid of change.
    It's not about personal taste or purism.

    Vocals are distracting.

    They distract from the rhythm of the music and they distract from what the skaters are performing on the ice.

    Figure skating is very difficult to judge as it is.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by icenut84 View Post
    ITA. This is the one rule change that makes me the most, to be honest. My main thing is that I think it will majorly affect the excitement and tension of a competition. If the skaters all skate in reverse order, then every single time the marks come up the skater will either be in their "alloted spot", i.e. no movement, or they will go down the rankings. Nobody will EVER get their score and see that they have moved up, and have the excitement/exhilaration that comes with that realisation. And that for me is reason enough to keep the draw random within the groups.

    (Case in point - Sarah Meier winning the gold at 2011 Euros. She was in 3rd after the SP so if this reverse order rule was in place then, she'd have just seen that she was in her "alloted spot" with two skaters to go. Nice to know she'd got a medal, but that's it so far. Whereas the way it was, she happened to draw last and we got one of the most endearing reactions to a score/placement that there's been in a long time. You know, the kind of stuff that people remember and that audiences love. Don't take that away, ISU!)

    I think this argument may actually have convinced me. There would be no last minute come from behind victories if the freeskate were skated in reverse placement order.

    My recollection is Shen and Zhao. in second after the short program, skated last in the 2003 Worlds freeskate, and that's the most memorable skating performance I've ever witnessed. It wouldn't have been nearly as powerful a moment if they'd skated second to last.

    I'm not crazy about random order in short programs though. I think season's rankings should figure in that.

  11. #91

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    Vocal music (with lyrics) has been allowed in U.S. competitions at the Intermediate level and below for a couple of years now and I still haven't seen that many skaters using it. (I'll be at a very large competition with mostly low level skating this weekend and will try to keep track of how many skaters I see and how many use music with lyrics). So it's not that clear how many elite skaters would use them if at first if they were allowed. Pants/pantsuits have been allowed in the ladies division for quite a number of years now (I forget exactly how many) and still aren't particularly common. I wonder if. It would be interesting to hear how elite skaters would answer if asked what they would do if it were allowed (whether they definitely would use vocals immediately, definitely wouldn't, or might consider it at some point).

    Personally, I wouldn't be in favor of allowing them, partly for emotionally driven reasons and resistance to change. Looking at it rationally I really doubt that a large number of skaters would suddenly start using Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga. (As far as Justin Bieber goes, I'd think he'd be most popular among the tween set who would likely to be skating at Intermediate level and below, where vocals are already allowed, and I've yet to see a single free skate program with his vocals ). I also don't think vocals have in any way ruined ice dance or made it less enjoyable, nor have they ruined lower level skating since they've been allowed. But I have found it distracting sometimes on lower-level events where vocals are used to keep in mind that it is a free skate event and not a showcase, so I really do need to pay attention to all the technical details (so I agree with gkelly on that).
    Last edited by RFOS; 02-09-2012 at 09:51 PM.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's not about personal taste or purism.

    Vocals are distracting.

    They distract from the rhythm of the music and they distract from what the skaters are performing on the ice.

    Figure skating is very difficult to judge as it is.
    I'm certain figure skating is very difficult to judge (well, I'm not all that certain since I don't know all that much about it, but can pretty well guess a score anyway), but even if it's true figure skating is very difficult to judge if you actually do know something about it, then music itself must be a distraction from watching the actual skating.

    It seems to me I've heard that women's programs in particular tend to the bland musical choice for just that reason. And no doubt that's a factor in why the same musical choices are made over and over and over again (I could throw in a few more overs, but you get the drift).

    Still, ice dance judges have learned to cope, and some skaters have used music that's distracting without vocals, and the judges have managed to judge.

  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by icenut84 View Post
    ITA. This is the one rule change that makes me the most, to be honest. My main thing is that I think it will majorly affect the excitement and tension of a competition. If the skaters all skate in reverse order, then every single time the marks come up the skater will either be in their "alloted spot", i.e. no movement, or they will go down the rankings. Nobody will EVER get their score and see that they have moved up, and have the excitement/exhilaration that comes with that realisation. And that for me is reason enough to keep the draw random within the groups.

    (Case in point - Sarah Meier winning the gold at 2011 Euros. She was in 3rd after the SP so if this reverse order rule was in place then, she'd have just seen that she was in her "alloted spot" with two skaters to go. Nice to know she'd got a medal, but that's it so far. Whereas the way it was, she happened to draw last and we got one of the most endearing reactions to a score/placement that there's been in a long time. You know, the kind of stuff that people remember and that audiences love. Don't take that away, ISU!)
    You're absolutely right about this! I also agree with Ziggy that it's bad in that you always know that the next skater has a higher ranking than the previous one, which could only increase the degree of subconscious bias based on skate order.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    I'm certain figure skating is very difficult to judge (well, I'm not all that certain since I don't know all that much about it, but can pretty well guess a score anyway), but even if it's true figure skating is very difficult to judge if you actually do know something about it, then music itself must be a distraction from watching the actual skating.
    Competitive skating doesn't exist without music, therefore that point is moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    Still, ice dance judges have learned to cope, and some skaters have used music that's distracting without vocals, and the judges have managed to judge.
    People can adapt to pretty much everything. There's no need to make things any more difficult than they already are, though.

    And it's not just about judging. I find vocals distracting from focusing on and enjoying the performances.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    You're absolutely right about this! I also agree with Ziggy that it's bad in that you always know that the next skater has a higher ranking than the previous one, which could only increase the degree of subconscious bias based on skate order.
    With a random draw, we probably get an equal mix of exciting come-from-behind moments, anticlimactic situations where the medals are already decided before the last two or three skaters even skate their programs, and mild suspense of possible upsets that don't materialize.

    I'm sure the proposal is to eliminate the anticlimax situations. But were those really ever as memorably boring as the upsets were exciting?

    On another note, one thing I think the ISU really needs to encourage in long programs is announcing "That puts Skater Q 1st in the freeskate and 2nd overall" instead of just "Skater Q is now in 2nd place." They have done this at some times in the past, and it really would prevent a lot of confusion and outrage.

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Competitive skating doesn't exist without music, therefore that point is moot.
    Clearly you haven't judged endless groups of compulsory moves and compulsory spins. I don't know if they even have those events in other countries, and obviously they aren't held by the ISU. But they sure are competitive!

  17. #97

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    [QUOTE=Ziggy;3473793
    And it's not just about judging. I find vocals distracting from focusing on and enjoying the performances.[/QUOTE]

    I don't have that problem, so I doubt it's universal.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I find vocals distracting from focusing on and enjoying the performances.
    I think it depends on the vocals. But if the words don't fit the skate or are offensive in some way, yes, that's distracting.

    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    I don't have that problem, so I doubt it's universal.
    Is anything about music truly universal?

    I think being distracted by the words is pretty common but only if you listen to the lyrics. I know plenty of people who sing along to songs and yet can't tell you what the lyrics are or mean because they don't process them on a conscious level. But once you notice (or it's pointed out to you) the lyrics, it's almost impossible to ignore from that point on whenever you hear the song.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    And it's not just about judging. I find vocals distracting from focusing on and enjoying the performances.
    Sorry, I for one, would like to see the vocal option available for all disciplines. I find it more distracting when a skater uses a beautiful piece of music and skates emotionless to it because he or she has no connection to it, OR when a well-known piece is being used uncharacteristically, OR when a piece has been chopped up to fit the elements, OR when multiple pieces of music that have nothing to do with one another or have significantly different orchestrations are joltingly edited together...I can go on...

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conga View Post
    Sorry, I for one, would like to see the vocal option available for all disciplines. I find it more distracting when a skater uses a beautiful piece of music and skates emotionless to it because he or she has no connection to it, OR when a well-known piece is being used uncharacteristically, OR when a piece has been chopped up to fit the elements, OR when multiple pieces of music that have nothing to do with one another or have significantly different orchestrations are joltingly edited together...I can go on...
    But all of this could happen with vocal music as well.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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