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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by champs View Post
    Since there are only three jump passes in the SP for singles, I have a feeling that this rule change alone would make quite a few skaters do all three jump passes in the second half starting right after the halfway mark in their programs, kind of defeating the purpose of "even distribution." I suppose there is a better way to achieve such a goal than this proposal if even distribution of difficulties is so important (personally I don't really care.)
    The bonus in the free skate has did not lead to even distribution. Unless 4 or 5 jumps immediately starting at the halfway point and one after another is even distribution. It isn't to me! If you want jumps at the end make a last 15 or 30 second bonus in the FS and in the SP - it's so short - last 10 seconds or 15 seconds.

    Free skate layouts are mostly for men

    Jump
    jump
    jump
    spin
    step
    --
    jump
    jump
    jump
    jump
    jump
    steps
    spin
    spin

    New SP rules
    jump
    spin
    spin
    step
    --
    jump
    jump
    spin

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    I've never understood the objection to vocals, given the constant (and valid) complaints about endless Carmens, etc.
    Personally, my main objection to lyrics in skating programs is that I find it distracting. Part of my brain is occupied in listening to the words and as a result unavailable for focusing on the technical details or even the musical details (melody, rhythm, etc.) and how the skating reflects them.

    Quote Originally Posted by champs View Post
    Since there are only three jump passes in the SP for singles, I have a feeling that this rule change alone would make quite a few skaters do all three jump passes in the second half starting right after the halfway mark in their programs,
    That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for any given program.

    It would be boring if ALL programs are spin-steps-spin-jump-jump-jump-spin just like it's boring for all programs to be jump-jump-jump-spin-spin-steps-spin or jump-jump-spin-jump-spin-steps-spin.

    But I think with this rule we'll see more mix of layouts. Skaters who are attempting jumps on the edge of their ability are not likely to save them for the second half.

    E.g., if you watch a full range of junior and novice ladies' programs, the skaters who choose to do double-double combination and double jump out of steps (or single axel for the novices) are more likely to save those jumps for the later part of the SP because they can. The ones who are attempting triples usually get the attempts out of the way early on.

    I don't think we're going to see a lot of quads attempted after a couple of spins. They guys who are including quads are mostly going to want to get them done early in the program regardless of bonuses. Same with triple axels for many of them, or 3-3 combos for the ladies (and so-so male jumpers).

    This might encourage skaters to include slow, edgy step sequences at the beginning of programs rather than saving quick steps for the end.

    kind of defeating the purpose of "even distribution." I suppose there is a better way to achieve such a goal than this proposal if even distribution of difficulties is so important
    How about, instead of defining the bonus in terms of time elapsed, say that jumps executed as the 5th element or later in the program earn the bonus.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    They aren't forced to use any particular music. The choices are wide open with no vocals being the only limitation. That rule is not the reason for the lack of variety. You write as if there is a list of acceptable music and all skaters are required to compete to Carmen and Swan Lake at least twice. That is absolutely not the case. The lack of original choices is a problem with choreographers and coaches not thinking outside the box; the rule prohibiting vocals has nothing to do with that.

    Good changes are good. Caving to pressure of television networks who likely want to use/promote pop music, not so much.
    If vocals are allowed, we could very well have the same problem with skaters using the same music over and over. It won't force skaters to find something unique if they don't want to.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesperholly View Post
    IceNetwork has been very successful for the USFSA. The ISU really ought to investigate implementing something similar. The Internet is the great equalizer. Just look at how the internet has brought skating fans together on forums across many, many miles. There may be only a few FSU-level fans in my city, so my local station won't think of us for a second, but in the entire world? There are plenty of people who don't even know FSU exists who would purchase online coverage of Worlds - especially to see all the skaters (not just the top 6 + your country) or to watch it "on demand" if it takes place in a far-away time zone. They could package the "greatest hits" for casual viewers and have a tiered pricing system.

    The ISU is so heavily dependent on money from TV contracts, of course they will bend to the will of TV. It's too bad, because TV culture is changing so rapidly with streaming broadcasts, netflix, etc, and the money may not always be there. I personally haven't had cable TV for over a year, and I know more and more people who are canceling theirs. Perhaps it is too complicated, with contracts and foreign laws, I don't know. But there is an opportunity to be a leader, not a follower. I doubt the ISU understands that in any real capacity, especially judging by the top leadership.

    Actually they already have their own channel: the ISU skating channel: http://livemanager.eurovision.edgesu...pay/index.html

    It streamed Euros 2012 and now 4CCs. Unfortunately, it's just available to countries where no TV station bought the right for the event. Unfortunately, someone bought the TV rights to 4CC for many European countries (maybe Eurosport), although it's not shown on any European TV station - which means many European skating fans are not able to watch 4CC.

  5. #45
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    The vocal music rule is pretty pointless and I'd like to see it done away with. If dance has been able to find creative ways to use vocal music, why wouldn't the other disciplines be able to do the same thing? Using vocals won't automatically make it Justin Beiber on Ice, and frankly I'd rather hear the original vocals than muzak versions of popular songs.


    Then of course there is the argument about whether expanding the appeal of the sport is more important than keeping its purity. But that might be a debate for another thread.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    They're lowering maximum ages, which means limiting junior competition to fewer skaters (teams).

    And raising the minimum age for senior Bs, which means limiting senior fall competitions to fewer skaters.

    The only age change I see that gives more skaters a choice to compete at a given level is raising the max age for novice male partners.
    What I mean is allowing younger skaters like 12 or 13 who can compete with their "senior" counterparts (like the younger Russian girls) a chance to compete, regardless of age. Also allow older skaters (maybe in their twenties) who are not as skilled as their "senior" counterparts to be juniors, more like schools set up varsity and junior varsity. Not based on age but skills, they can still use the scores to separate them but I think that would be more fair based on skills and not age.

    I also don't think bringing lyrics into skating will bring in viewers, or viewership for the galas would skyrocket and it's not.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    What I mean is allowing younger skaters like 12 or 13 who can compete with their "senior" counterparts (like the younger Russian girls) a chance to compete, regardless of age. Also allow older skaters (maybe in their twenties) who are not as skilled as their "senior" counterparts to be juniors, more like schools set up varsity and junior varsity. Not based on age but skills, they can still use the scores to separate them but I think that would be more fair based on skills and not age.
    That's how it works domestically within the US. But there is not now and likely will not in the foreseeable future ever be a proposal on the table for the ISU to make that the case internationally.

    It would be fine with me if there were, but I guess there would have to be some kind of rules to prevent sandbagging.

  8. #48

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    The vocal music one is interesting. I have found ice dance really hasn't had an overuse of vocal music, we still get to see quite a lot of programs using instrumental. Although we have had to listen to quite a few of those dreadful "Il Divo" OMG type operatic stuff.

    But when it comes down it, the musical structure of a program has to work. And if you are going to use vocals you had better consider how you use it and what you are going to do with it.

    Overall I think there are some good proposals in there. The age stuff seems to make a lot more sense.

    I like how the second sequence that is done is a choreographic. There are some guys who have done fabulous spirals and moves such as Shawn Sawyer and Sandhu that take your breath away. I would love to see guys rewarded for those and have them given credit and encouraged.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    P



    How about, instead of defining the bonus in terms of time elapsed, say that jumps executed as the 5th element or later in the program earn the bonus.
    Time elapsed is wrong and I agree because all jumps have values that the hardest jumps towards the end recieve a bonus. Since ISU has already decided to have two phases of a LP then could clearly say a 3A or 3lz as the 2nd to last or last jump gets a bonus. If the whole point of the rule is not to have all jumps done by 2:15 why is it Ok to have them all done by 3:00? Using the men timetable. For ladies it would be 2:30 or 2:45. If they do this it should be last 20 or 30 seconds or a bonus for a 3A in last 30 or for ladies 3lz or flip. Or you only get a bonus if you do a combination in the last 20 or 30.

  10. #50

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    I like the "choreographic sequence" idea. No to vocals!!

  11. #51
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    Vocal music is gonna ruin everything. Imagine a whole competition full of Adele.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by champs View Post
    Since there are only three jump passes in the SP for singles, I have a feeling that this rule change alone would make quite a few skaters do all three jump passes in the second half starting right after the halfway mark in their programs, kind of defeating the purpose of "even distribution." I suppose there is a better way to achieve such a goal than this proposal if even distribution of difficulties is so important (personally I don't really care.)
    I wish the focus would be on "discouraging consecutive jumping passes" instead of just "encouraging back loading".

    I mean, the way Plushenko did it was bad (frontloading, and a few jumps in a row), but the way Ando did it (backloading, but still 5 jumps in a row) was also disturbing.

    Perhaps they could impose a maximum of 1 consecutive jumping of 2 jumps in the sp and a maximum of 3 consecutive jumping of 2 jumps in the fs. Doing 3 jumps or more back to back should incur a CH deduction IMO.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    You really want another decade or two of Carmens?
    Actually I love Carmen and could listen to it forever. OTOH, I hate POTO and would love to see it limited. But someone else probably hates Carmen and loves POTO and so I can't see them coming up with a rule that makes everyone happy.

    But this has nothing to do with whether or not vocals are allowed as allowing vocals won't stop people from using the tried and true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Made4Dancin View Post
    Vocal music is gonna ruin everything. Imagine a whole competition full of Adele.
    Exactly.
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  14. #54
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    Instead of just dealing with step sequence vs spiral sequence / MITF, I wish the ISU would find a way to discourage slow-across-the-ice, time consuming, regressing step sequences with unclear patterns that take a minute each to complete.

    And again, the ISU isn't dealing with further rewarding jump combinations and encouraging diversity in jumping... or ridiculous PCS judging...

  15. #55

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    Not sure what's the problem with vocals. Isn't Weaver/Poje's FD this season supposed to be so original, courageous, brave and brilliant? That has vocals.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    Isn't Weaver/Poje's FD this season supposed to be so original, courageous, brave and brilliant?
    No
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I wish the focus would be on "discouraging consecutive jumping passes" instead of just "encouraging back loading".

    I mean, the way Plushenko did it was bad (frontloading, and a few jumps in a row), but the way Ando did it (backloading, but still 5 jumps in a row) was also disturbing.

    Perhaps they could impose a maximum of 1 consecutive jumping of 2 jumps in the sp and a maximum of 3 consecutive jumping of 2 jumps in the fs. Doing 3 jumps or more back to back should incur a CH deduction IMO.
    This would be best if they want even distribution throughout. Because skaters do like to do as many jumps in a row as possible. Where it be starting at 0:00 or 2:00 or 2:15. Like Amodio does six starting at the halfway point and it is broken up by a spin

    5 3A 9.35 x 2.00 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 2 3 11.35
    6 3Lz+2T+2T 9.46 x 0.80 0 1 2 1 2 1 0 1 2 10.26
    7 CSSp3 2.60 1.07 2 2 3 2 2 2 1 3 2 3.67
    8 3S+2T 6.05 x 1.00 1 2 2 1 1 1 0 2 2 7.05
    9 3Lz 6.60 x 0.90 2 1 2 1 1 1 0 1 2 7.50
    10 3F e 5.83 x -0.60 -1 -1 -2 -1 -1 0 -2 0 0 5.23
    11 1A 1.21 x

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Made4Dancin View Post
    Vocal music is gonna ruin everything. Imagine a whole competition full of Adele.
    Or Plushenko skating to mix of Edvin Marton and "Sexy and I Know It"

  19. #59
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    Vocal "Carmen"!

    Or the "Carmen Jones" version:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB8lrQNELVc

    "Stand up and fight until you hear the bell,
    Stand toe to toe, trade blow for blow
    Keep punching til you make the punches tell,
    Show them folks what you know.
    Until you hear that bell, the final bell,
    Stand up and fight like hell!"
    Or this classic from Samuel Ramey:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ezTttDh0I

    Wheeeeeeeee!
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 02-06-2012 at 08:12 AM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by HisWeirness View Post
    Free Skate Draw Changes

    ISU SPTC:
    There will be no draw for the order of skating in each group, competitors will skate in reverse order to their places in the preceding segment of the competition, that is, with the best placed Competitor skating last. The order of skating between tied Competitors shall be determined by a separate draw.

    Reason: To implement for the Free Skating the same practice as in the ISU Grand Prix Events.

    NOTE: ice dance technical committee did not propose to change the free dance draw. Yet...
    Completely irrational of me, but I've always liked that the skating order at Worlds/Europeans/4CC doesn't just follow the order from the SP. Somehow makes it more exciting to see who gets drawn where, and so often it stops the whole thing feeling like a procession towards crowning the person who won the short as the person who wins overall.

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