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  1. #21

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    The use or words is a rule which is not reinforced consistently.

    For example, Iliushetchkina & Maisuradze have music which I think could be potentially deducted but it was considered acceptable.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYsTrQkBSRg

    In comparison, a few years ago Brian Joubert had some music which was considered ok for the whole season, including GP events and Europeans, and then got deducted at worlds.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLfIpdpLncU

    And then we can compare it with Amodio, who got away with using program with words last year at Worlds...

    I would prefer if words were not allowed in the program. But either way, I think it would be much more fair if the rule (either allowing it or not allowing it) applied to all freeskaters equally. If it is not allowed, it should be is reinforced by bigger deduction (like -5), because otherwise it looks like if Amodio was sticking his middle finger towards the judges and saying 'sod you' (and got away with it).

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    VERY limiting. I think it's an unnecessary restriction for ladies. The step sequence should be obviously different from the spiral / mitf sequence.
    But with this change, ladies will have the option to do another step sequence that contains one spiral. (Already some do that in their step sequences, although they rarely hold them very long)

    So it won't always be obvious at the beginning whether it's going to be the step sequence or the choreo sequence . . . or just transitions.

    For those who have experience running competitions with this scoring system, would it work for skaters to designate their leveled step sequence in their planned elements? It seems like that would be a much easier way to go.
    It would help.

    I just know in the US. At nonqualifying competitions sometimes skaters do not submit planned program content sheets, so the callers have no idea to expect.

    Even if submitting the sheet is a requirement for entering a qualifying competition or an international competition, there's no guarantee the skater will follow it.

    E.g., US competitors submit the form in the summer when they register for the whole qualifying season. If they don't update it when they make changes, but the time they get to Nationals (assuming they get there), the plan might be very different from what they submitted.

    And then sometimes they make a mistake early in the program and start improvising to try to make up for it -- either switching to a plan B or making it all up on the spot. Or, early in the season, they forget the plan and start improvising.

    The latter probably wouldn't affect the placement of the step sequence vs. the choreo sequence. It might affect whether one or both of the sequences fill enough ice to get credit all, though. Which could confuse the tech panels.

    It would be possible to let tech panels just call both sequences and decide after the fact which gets a level and which doesn't. More work for the panel (but not much more than when both sequences had levels) and more time to wait for them to finalize after the end of the program.

    It could also make it possible for skaters (especially men) to aim at high levels for both sequences and then get credit for whichever one better succeeded at achieving the features. Do we want to let some play the system that way so that others can have the freedom to put their choreo sequence first?

    I think bringing age limits for GP in line with ISU championships will be well received, but I kind of liked it. I think it helped young skaters experience senior ranks on the GP without having pressure of earning spots at worlds weighing on them all season.
    Especially if there's a medium to deep field in the skater's country, the federation has the option to send that skater to GPs for experience and send an older skater to Worlds. But not even smaller countries always choose to use it -- e.g., South Korea 2005-06.

    However, it does kind of make sense to keep the ages consistent for all senior events, especially since the ones with the lower minimum generally take place earlier in the season. For skaters with winter birthdays, it was kind of silly to say "You can compete senior when you're still 14, but you're not allowed to compete at the later season events when you're already 15."

    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    I like the fact the fact they are lowering the age of juniors but I wish they get rid of it and go strictly by ability and not by age.
    They're lowering maximum ages, which means limiting junior competition to fewer skaters (teams).

    And raising the minimum age for senior Bs, which means limiting senior fall competitions to fewer skaters.

    The only age change I see that gives more skaters a choice to compete at a given level is raising the max age for novice male partners.

  3. #23

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    I've never understood the objection to vocals, given the constant (and valid) complaints about endless Carmens, etc.

    If you want the sport to be judged as pure athletics, then eliminate music altogether. If you acknowledge that it's a sport judged by musicality, then open up the music to all its possibilities.

    I'd much rather see skaters performing to the actual versions of songs than the ghastly muzak they use now.
    Last edited by missing; 02-05-2012 at 06:18 PM.

  4. #24
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    From the original post, this is the sentence that scares me:

    The television networks are requesting the use of vocal music in singles and pairs to increase the entertainment value for the viewing audience.
    How far away would we be from "NBC presents the ladies free skate at U.S. Nationals with the music of Justin Bieber" (or whatever the pop flavor of the year is...)?

    As I already said, I don't think the networks are envisioning promoting the entertainment value of classical music with vocals.

  5. #25
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    One age for senior! That would be great. And, hey, since the GP apparently isn't meant to be developmental, it doesn't make sense to let skaters in a year early when according to the championships, they're still juniors.
    The Junior Grand Prix: Where skaters who "come out of nowhere" come from.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    But with this change, ladies will have the option to do another step sequence that contains one spiral. (Already some do that in their step sequences, although they rarely hold them very long)

    So it won't always be obvious at the beginning whether it's going to be the step sequence or the choreo sequence . . . or just transitions.
    Given that is basically replacing the spiral sequence / requirement, I would hope skaters use it for spread eagles, ina bauers, spirals and hydroblades. This would make it hard to confuse with a step sequence.

    "COP leads to cookie cutter programs" is a major criticism of this judging system. Requiring that this sequence can't come before the step sequence is not going to help this issue.

    Since skaters like to leave their step sequences for the end, I hope this might lead to them doing easier* sequences earlier in the program. But I'm guessing most will leave it until the end and just continue right into this choreographic sequence, with some crossovers in between, possibly finishing with a spin.

    I like gkelly's idea about marking both sequences and giving a level to the more difficult one, but I don't think we'll be that lucky.

    *easier = faster and more musical!
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  7. #27
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    I'm hesitant about lyrics too, but the thing is the no lyrics rule doesn't really stop the skaters from using pop songs. It actually makes it worse because they have to use muzak. A lot of people complained about Duhamel & Radford's version of Viva la Vida by Coldplay this year. It would have sounded better if they had just used the original song with lyrics (it seems to me that they cut between muzak and parts of the actual song where it's just "ooooooh"s with no words). Then there's all the skaters who have used dreadful arrangements of Bohemian Rhapsody, Rolling Stones songs, etc. Joannie's Like a Prayer SP was ok, but would have been better with Madonna's lyrics and orchestration.

    The downside is that skaters will probably just tend to use whatever is popular or that they like without a lot of thought... so we would start seeing a lot of Glee, Adele, Josh Groban, etc in competition, which would be sort of awful.

  8. #28
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    I doubt that we would see that many pop music programs. When choosing music skaters think about what judges are going to like. Look at Ice dancing...no one is skating to lady GAGA yet or jamming to Fergie...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDelpairs2012 View Post
    I doubt that we would see that many pop music programs. When choosing music skaters think about what judges are going to like. Look at Ice dancing...no one is skating to lady GAGA yet or jamming to Fergie...
    If it is still a matter of choosing to please judges. But if ISU caves to network television to allow it, how far will they cave to please the networks with music choices? Again...the networks aren't in it to cross promote operatic arias.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    If it is still a matter of choosing to please judges. But if ISU caves to network television to allow it, how far will they cave to please the networks with music choices? Again...the networks aren't in it to cross promote operatic arias.
    But maybe it isn't only network television that's requesting the change. Maybe coaches and choreographers are (they've got to be bored of Carmen also). Maybe the elite skaters are (they've got to be even more bored of Carmen).

    Maybe the ISU has done some polling/market research, and found younger skaters are dropping out of the sport because they have no desire to skate to Carmen. Maybe they've found that audiences are turned off by the endless repetition of the same music.

    Maybe some of the complaints about the cookie cutter nature of the current programs (complaints I don't agree with, but acknowledge are there) would disappear if there was a greater variety of musical choices to skate to.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    Maybe the ISU has done some polling/market research, and found younger skaters are dropping out of the sport because they have no desire to skate to Carmen.
    Thanks for making me laugh.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    But maybe it isn't only network television that's requesting the change. Maybe coaches and choreographers are (they've got to be bored of Carmen also). Maybe the elite skaters are (they've got to be even more bored of Carmen).

    Maybe the ISU has done some polling/market research, and found younger skaters are dropping out of the sport because they have no desire to skate to Carmen. Maybe they've found that audiences are turned off by the endless repetition of the same music.

    Maybe some of the complaints about the cookie cutter nature of the current programs (complaints I don't agree with, but acknowledge are there) would disappear if there was a greater variety of musical choices to skate to.
    If any of those reasons were the motivation, surely the reasoning presented in the proposal would include them. The only specific reasoning cited is the request of television networks.

    (And when does the ISU bother to do any marketing studies??? This is an organization that is allowing Worlds to be broadcast only via internet subscription or one satellite company in one of the world's largest markets)

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    But maybe it isn't only network television that's requesting the change. Maybe coaches and choreographers are (they've got to be bored of Carmen also). Maybe the elite skaters are (they've got to be even more bored of Carmen).

    Maybe the ISU has done some polling/market research, and found younger skaters are dropping out of the sport because they have no desire to skate to Carmen. Maybe they've found that audiences are turned off by the endless repetition of the same music.

    Maybe some of the complaints about the cookie cutter nature of the current programs (complaints I don't agree with, but acknowledge are there) would disappear if there was a greater variety of musical choices to skate to.
    Jesus! I love your optimisms.

    But you were not tryiong to be serious, were you?

  14. #34

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    I am by nature a cheery and optimistic person, but I do find it hard to believe kids between the ages of 8-14 are going, "Oh boy, I can't wait to get to the rink and skate to Carmen."

    I'm also willing to believe coaches have noticed a lack of enthusiasm from their young skaters, when told they have to skate to Carmen or a muzak version of Paint It Black.

    I'm also willing to believe the ISU has noticed a drop in attendance, at least in the US, which is a major market, and is willing to consider options, including music with vocals, as a way of bringing audiences back.

    I understand that there's a negative feeling towards the ISU, and given that negative feeling, there's an assumption that all its decisions must, by definition, be bad. I also understand that sports fans tend to be conservative which it comes to changes in their sport.

    But sheesh. Can anyone really defend the constant repetition of music that skaters are forced to use and the audience is forced to listen to?

    You really want another decade or two of Carmens?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    Can anyone really defend the constant repetition of music that skaters are forced to use
    Forced! Forced by coaches and equally choreographers, who know that won't allow anything else!



    Have you by any chance listened to the music to which Carolina Kostner, Jeremy Abbott, and Daisuke Takahashi are skating this season?

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    I am by nature a cheery and optimistic person, but I do find it hard to believe kids between the ages of 8-14 are going, "Oh boy, I can't wait to get to the rink and skate to Carmen."

    I'm also willing to believe coaches have noticed a lack of enthusiasm from their young skaters, when told they have to skate to Carmen or a muzak version of Paint It Black.

    I'm also willing to believe the ISU has noticed a drop in attendance, at least in the US, which is a major market, and is willing to consider options, including music with vocals, as a way of bringing audiences back.

    I understand that there's a negative feeling towards the ISU, and given that negative feeling, there's an assumption that all its decisions must, by definition, be bad. I also understand that sports fans tend to be conservative which it comes to changes in their sport.

    But sheesh. Can anyone really defend the constant repetition of music that skaters are forced to use and the audience is forced to listen to?

    You really want another decade or two of Carmens?
    They aren't forced to use any particular music. The choices are wide open with no vocals being the only limitation. That rule is not the reason for the lack of variety. You write as if there is a list of acceptable music and all skaters are required to compete to Carmen and Swan Lake at least twice. That is absolutely not the case. The lack of original choices is a problem with choreographers and coaches not thinking outside the box; the rule prohibiting vocals has nothing to do with that.

    Good changes are good. Caving to pressure of television networks who likely want to use/promote pop music, not so much.

  17. #37
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    Rewarding Jumps Completed Later in the Short Program

    ISU Single & Pair Technical Committee (SPTC) & Norway:
    In the Short Program of Single Skating the base values (but not the GOE’s) for all jump elements started in the second half of the program will be multiplied by a special factor 1.1 in order to give credit for even distribution of difficulties in the program. ...(the rest omitted)

    Reason: To give credit for even distribution of difficulties in Short Program, not only in Free skating. This adjustment of the rule will get better balanced short programs, now most Skaters do all the difficult elements in the beginning of the program.
    Since there are only three jump passes in the SP for singles, I have a feeling that this rule change alone would make quite a few skaters do all three jump passes in the second half starting right after the halfway mark in their programs, kind of defeating the purpose of "even distribution." I suppose there is a better way to achieve such a goal than this proposal if even distribution of difficulties is so important (personally I don't really care.)

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    If any of those reasons were the motivation, surely the reasoning presented in the proposal would include them. The only specific reasoning cited is the request of television networks.
    I find it funny that everyone is deriding Carmen when the "Battle of the Carmens" actually has its own Wikipedia page. The media loved that one. You just have to know how to "sell" your sport. Go on the marketing offensive, do not let people who know nothing about skating dictate how it is to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    (And when does the ISU bother to do any marketing studies??? This is an organization that is allowing Worlds to be broadcast only via internet subscription or one satellite company in one of the world's largest markets)
    This!!! IceNetwork has been very successful for the USFSA. The ISU really ought to investigate implementing something similar. The Internet is the great equalizer. Just look at how the internet has brought skating fans together on forums across many, many miles. There may be only a few FSU-level fans in my city, so my local station won't think of us for a second, but in the entire world? There are plenty of people who don't even know FSU exists who would purchase online coverage of Worlds - especially to see all the skaters (not just the top 6 + your country) or to watch it "on demand" if it takes place in a far-away time zone. They could package the "greatest hits" for casual viewers and have a tiered pricing system.

    The ISU is so heavily dependent on money from TV contracts, of course they will bend to the will of TV. It's too bad, because TV culture is changing so rapidly with streaming broadcasts, netflix, etc, and the money may not always be there. I personally haven't had cable TV for over a year, and I know more and more people who are canceling theirs. Perhaps it is too complicated, with contracts and foreign laws, I don't know. But there is an opportunity to be a leader, not a follower. I doubt the ISU understands that in any real capacity, especially judging by the top leadership.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesperholly View Post
    I find it funny that everyone is deriding Carmen when the "Battle of the Carmens" actually has its own Wikipedia page. The media loved that one. You just have to know how to "sell" your sport. Go on the marketing offensive, do not let people who know nothing about skating dictate how it is to be.

    This!!! IceNetwork has been very successful for the USFSA. The ISU really ought to investigate implementing something similar. The Internet is the great equalizer. Just look at how the internet has brought skating fans together on forums across many, many miles. There may be only a few FSU-level fans in my city, so my local station won't think of us for a second, but in the entire world? There are plenty of people who don't even know FSU exists who would purchase online coverage of Worlds - especially to see all the skaters (not just the top 6 + your country) or to watch it "on demand" if it takes place in a far-away time zone. They could package the "greatest hits" for casual viewers and have a tiered pricing system.

    The ISU is so heavily dependent on money from TV contracts, of course they will bend to the will of TV. It's too bad, because TV culture is changing so rapidly with streaming broadcasts, netflix, etc, and the money may not always be there. I personally haven't had cable TV for over a year, and I know more and more people who are canceling theirs. Perhaps it is too complicated, with contracts and foreign laws, I don't know. But there is an opportunity to be a leader, not a follower. I doubt the ISU understands that in any real capacity, especially judging by the top leadership.
    If the goal is to increase the fan base, though, subscription online broadcasts are not the answer. Skating will not develop new fans that way. And for some long time fans, it is not an option to subscribe. I'm a fan because my mother was always a fan. She lacks the internet connection to view online at all (not too mention that for her to truly see the skaters it needs to be on a larger screen). I lack the money to subscribe (hell...at the moment I lack the money to eat). We surely aren't the only ones for whom online viewing is not an option.

    I totally agree that letting television in any way dictate the rules of the sport is absurd. But leave it to the ISU to go along with it.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    If the goal is to increase the fan base, though, subscription online broadcasts are not the answer. Skating will not develop new fans that way. And for some long time fans, it is not an option to subscribe. ... We surely aren't the only ones for whom online viewing is not an option.
    Very true. Online subscription shouldn't be the only option, I just think it's one that is woefully underexplored.

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