Spin levels - Keegan Messing in particular.

[A.H.Black]

At Nationals, my friends and I had a running conversation about spins - and Keegan Messing in particular. Here's the gist of the points we discussed.

- Keegan is a good spinner. His positions aren't always the best but he spins with power and speed. Because of his speed, there is really no excuse for him to not have level 4 spins.

- Keegan had 2 level 3 spins in the short. In the free program he had one level 2 and one level 3 spin.

- On "tech radio" in the arena, David Kirby made the point that there can be as much as a 7 point difference between a level 3 and a level 4 spin. We thought about this statement and determined that if a skater gets positive GOE's for a level 4 spin it could indeed be as much as 7 points.

- Assuming there is as big a difference between a level 2 spin and a level 3 spin, Keegan could have scored as much as 35 points higher with all level 4 spins.

- Even if Keegan got only 17 more points with better spins, he would have jumped 3 places (to 4th). 35 more points would have given him 2nd place. I'm quite sure Keegan would not have received all those possible points, however, he surely would have had a better result than 7th.

- We disagreed on whose responsibility it is that Keegan (or any skater) should have level 4 spins. Some thought it was the coach who should have insisted that he practice them in every session. I think the responsibility is Keegan's. He is an experienced skater and should know the value of each element. Probably the responsibility is with both coach and skater.

Note to Keegan - Learn to count!

Note to all skaters - If you want to be in the top groups of skaters, do level 4 spins.

Thoughts?

[Spazactaz]

Where are you getting these numbers?? Spins don't get you many points at all... and there's definitely not much difference between levels. Even Patrick Chan plans only a level 3 combo spin in his short. Even if you got all negative GOE on a level 3 as opposed to all positive on a level 4, that's nowhere near 7 points.

[BigB08822]

Maybe it is 7 points difference if you assume the level 4 spin is +3 GOE and the level 3 spin is -3 GOE? That isn't very logical though, is it? If a skater is getting -3 GOE on level 3 spins then what are the odds of them suddenly getting +3 GOE on level 4 spins?

[gkelly]

- Keegan is a good spinner. His positions aren't always the best but he spins with power and speed. Because of his speed, there is really no excuse for him to not have level 4 spins.

Speed alone won't get you 4 features. It'll help with the 8 revs in position feature, but otherwise you would need to have other skills that aren't directly related to speed.

Speed will also help with the positive GOE, assuming it's not at the expense of centering.

[Vagabond]

Maybe it is 7 points difference if you assume the level 4 spin is +3 GOE and the level 3 spin is -3 GOE?

No. The most points a singles skater can get for a particular spin is 5.0 points for a Level 4 Spin Combination with change of position and change of foot with a Grade of Execution of +3.0. Level 3 on that particular spin with -3.0 GOE would earn 2.1 points, for a difference of 2.9 points.

Scale of Values for 2011-12

And Messing didn't get negative GOE on his spins at Nationals.

[Sylvia]

The most points a singles skater can get for a particular spin is 5.0 points for a Level 4 Spin Combination with change of position and change of foot with a Grade of Execution of +3.0.

I believe Scott Dyer -- probably the best overall spinner in the Senior men's field -- was the only one to achieve this feat in his SP. Dyer and Grant Hochstein were the were the only 2 to attain all Level 4 spins in both the SP and FS.

Here's a breakdown of Messing's and Dyer's spins.

Messing SP:
FCSp3 2.8 BV / 3.51
CSSp4 3.0 BV / 3.86
CCoSp3 3.0 BV / 4.07

Dyer SP:
FCSp4 3.2 BV / 3.63
CSSp4 3.0 BV / 4.21
CCoSp4 3.5 BV / 5.00 (received +3 GOE from all judges)

Messing FS:
FSSp4 3.0 BV / 3.86
FCSp2 2.3 BV / 2.51
CCoSp3 3.0 BV / 3.86

Dyer FS:
FCCoSp4 3.5 BV / 4.50
CSSp4 3.0 BV / 3.86
CCoSp4 3.5 BV / 4.93

[ryanbfan]

And Messing didn't get negative GOE on his spins at Nationals.

This. Thank you.

And his program wasn't low scored just because of his spins. There were too many huge and minor technical mistakes. It just wasn't the free skate we, as in Team Keegan, wanted for him.

ETA: Just wanted to add because I don't think I made my point - but I don't think spin points would've made too much of a difference on his placement because the rest of the skate technically wasn't there.

[A.H.Black]

Where are you getting these numbers?? Spins don't get you many points at all... and there's definitely not much difference between levels. Even Patrick Chan plans only a level 3 combo spin in his short. Even if you got all negative GOE on a level 3 as opposed to all positive on a level 4, that's nowhere near 7 points.

As I mentioned in my original post, we got the number from a comment by David Kirby when he was calling elements for tech radio inside the HP Pavilion during Nationals (I think it was Men's). He was answering a question by Jimmy Santee about the difference in value between a level 3 and a level 4 spin.

David Kirby is a coach, a technical specialist and a member of the ISU technical committee for Singles and Pairs. Therefore, when he made the comment that the difference between a level 3 and a level 4 spin could be as much as seven points, we assumed he was probably correct.

Speed alone won't get you 4 features. It'll help with the 8 revs in position feature, but otherwise you would need to have other skills that aren't directly related to speed.

Speed will also help with the positive GOE, assuming it's not at the expense of centering.

I agree about the revolutions. However speed plays a role. Many skaters can't get 8 revolutions in because they spin too slowly. Keegan spins quickly so he shouldn't have a problem getting 8 revolutions without taking up too much time.

I'm not a particular fan of Keegan's. We just talked about him because we thought he had such potential for getting level 4 spins every time and somehow he doesn't do it. Our question is why? Keegan barely missed that 8 revolution mark over and over again. It just shouldn't happen.

I believe Scott Dyer -- probably the best overall spinner in the Senior men's field -- was the only one to achieve this feat in his SP. Dyer and Grant Hochstein were the were the only 2 to attain all Level 4 spins in both the SP and FS.

Here's a breakdown of Messing's and Dyer's spins.

Messing SP:
FCSp3 2.8 BV / 3.51
CSSp4 3.0 BV / 3.86
CCoSp3 3.0 BV / 4.07

Dyer SP:
FCSp4 3.2 BV / 3.63
CSSp4 3.0 BV / 4.21
CCoSp4 3.5 BV / 5.00 (received +3 GOE from all judges)

Messing FS:
FSSp4 3.0 BV / 3.86
FCSp2 2.3 BV / 2.51
CCoSp3 3.0 BV / 3.86

Dyer FS:
FCCoSp4 3.5 BV / 4.50
CSSp4 3.0 BV / 3.86
CCoSp4 3.5 BV / 4.93

Thanks for the breakdown, Sylvia. We didn't go that far in our conversation. The comparison makes me wonder more about Mr. Kirby's comment. I'm not sure if he meant 7 points in the overall program? Maybe he meant a difference between a level 3 with really bad GOE's and a level 4 with really good GOE's - as BigB08822 mentioned.

This. Thank you.

And his program wasn't low scored just because of his spins. There were too many huge and minor technical mistakes. It just wasn't the free skate we, as in Team Keegan, wanted for him.

ETA: Just wanted to add because I don't think I made my point - but I don't think spin points would've made too much of a difference on his placement because the rest of the skate technically wasn't there.

I realize the rest of Keegan's skating (and all the skaters) was largely responsible for his point total and his placement. Our discussion was centered around the question of how much having good spins - level 4 spins - would make a difference in point totals and placement.



I still come back to the idea that for top level skaters level 4 spins are essential to get the points they need. I don't understand why they don't make sure they get those 8 revolutions in every time. If they hit a rut or make a bad entry into the spin, then the lower levels are understandable. Those mistakes should be the exception. Level 4 spins should be a given. As Sylvia pointed out, all level 4 spins are still the exception and not the rule.

[ryanbfan]

I realize the rest of Keegan's skating (and all the skaters) was largely responsible for his point total and his placement. Our discussion was centered around the question of how much having good spins - level 4 spins - would make a difference in point totals and placement.

And I said I didn't think the levels would make a difference in his placement because the rest of the skate wasn't there . If the skate was clean, I'm still not sure if it would make a difference because if the rest of the skate is above and beyond, then points in other spots will make up for lack of points in others.

[gkelly]

I agree about the revolutions. However speed plays a role. Many skaters can't get 8 revolutions in because they spin too slowly. Keegan spins quickly so he shouldn't have a problem getting 8 revolutions without taking up too much time.

I'm not a particular fan of Keegan's. We just talked about him because we thought he had such potential for getting level 4 spins every time and somehow he doesn't do it. Our question is why? Keegan barely missed that 8 revolution mark over and over again. It just shouldn't happen.

My point is that even if he can always consistently get 8 revs in a position that won't get him level 4.

The 8 revs in position is just one feature. To earn level 4 he would need 4 features in each spin. E.g., difficult variation (this often requires flexibility that not everyone possesses), backward entry, certain criteria for the fly on flying spins, change of edge, change of direction...

If he doesn't have three of the above in addition to 8 revolutions, he's not going to get level 4 no matter how fast he spins or how many revolutions more than 8 he has in that position

And several of the features do not apply in simple upright spins