Does a 2A/3 combo allow ladies to do 7 triples in the free?

[essence_of_soy]

I'm confused

After watching US Nationals and Japanese Nationals prior to that, skaters like Ashley Wagner and Akiko Suzuki included 7 triples in their free programs without a 3/3 combo.

Does including a double axel (combined with a triple) override this requirement?

[mag]

Ladies are allowed 7 jumping passed in the free program. One must be a axel jump. There is no limit on the number of triple jumps, other than only 2 may be repeated, and if repeated, they must be in combination. See this link for all the details. Jumps start on page 15.

http://www.skatinginbc.com/sites/def...gles_11-12.pdf

ETA: while a repeated jump must be in combination, it does not mean that any jump in a combination must be a repeated jump. For example, a double axel can be in combination with a triple toe and still be the only double axel in the program.

[essence_of_soy]

That makes sense. Thank you for your help.

[Sedge]

2A/3T makes it easier to plan 7 triples but is not essential.
A 3F/3T or a 3T/1Loop/3S allows 7 triples to fit in 7 boxes as well, and still allow a 2A.


More important in the planning of 7 triples is the ability to do 5 different triples.
If you can only do 4 different triples ( Czisny) ..the maximum number of triples you can include in a program is 6 ( 2 repeats ( 4) and 2 singletons ( 2) =6 jumps) .
If you were Suguri and could really only do 3 triples..the most you could plan to do is 5.
That is why skaters keep trying to re-introduce triples that are difficult for them ( Czisny....3S, Mao...3S, Suguri..3S and 3Loop)..in order to increase their planned triple count.

[smarts1]

^ Suguri could do a 3S. The jump the always gave her trouble was the loop.

[Domshabfan]

2A/3T makes it easier to plan 7 triples but is not essential.
A 3F/3T or a 3T/1Loop/3S allows 7 triples to fit in 7 boxes as well, and still allow a 2A.


More important in the planning of 7 triples is the ability to do 5 different triples.
If you can only do 4 different triples ( Czisny) ..the maximum number of triples you can include in a program is 6 ( 2 repeats ( 4) and 2 singletons ( 2) =6 jumps) .
If you were Suguri and could really only do 3 triples..the most you could plan to do is 5.
That is why skaters keep trying to re-introduce triples that are difficult for them ( Czisny....3S, Mao...3S, Suguri..3S and 3Loop)..in order to increase their planned triple count.

The real advantage is when you can do 3-3 and can do a 2A+3t(or L) this allows athletes to do 7 triples as well as 2 2As, thus greatly increasing the scoring potential. The athletes are not using 3 or so 2t and 2l in the combination as their 2nd and 3rd jumping element in the combination jump, instead they can do an extra 2a to score more.

[Marco]

The easiest 7 triple layout that is allowable should be

3lutz
3flip
3loop
3sal2toe
3sal
3toe2toe2toe
3toe tap 2axel

Of course you only get partial credit for either jump of the sequence.

[gkelly]

The easiest 7 triple layout that is allowable should be

3lutz
3flip
3loop
3sal2toe
3sal
3toe2toe2toe
3toe tap 2axel

Of course you only get partial credit for either jump of the sequence.

It's risky to put the only axel as the second jump in a sequence. Actually, in a way, it could be less risky if it's the last jump element of the program.

An axel jump is required. If you get to the last allowed jump pass and haven't done any kind of axel yet, you get no credit for the last pass.

If you plan to do something-tap-(double)axel and you fall on the something, you either won't do the axel at all or (if I understand correctly) it will not be scored and the first jump will get the sequence multiplier in addition to negative GOE and fall deduction, and lower base mark for underrotation or downgrade if applicable.

If this is one of your middle jump passes, then you get very few points (or tenths of points) for that pass even before the fall deduction, depending what the first jump was. And you also have no valid axel. So then the last jumping pass of the program, which might be a more successful and higher valued combination, will get exactly zero points.

If you do six good jump passes and fall on something intended to be something-tap-axel in the seventh pass, then you just lose value for that pass, which was next to nothing anyway, but you still get to keep all the points for all the the preceding jump passes.

[Triple Butz]

It's risky to put the only axel as the second jump in a sequence. Actually, in a way, it could be less risky if it's the last jump element of the program.

An axel jump is required. If you get to the last allowed jump pass and haven't done any kind of axel yet, you get no credit for the last pass.

ITA, it's risky. Has anyone ever gotten burned for missing an axel sequence and not having an axel jump in the LP? I can't remember that happening but surely it has on the lower levels?

[essence_of_soy]

ITA, it's risky. Has anyone ever gotten burned for missing an axel sequence and not having an axel jump in the LP? I can't remember that happening but surely it has on the lower levels?

Yes, it has happened.

At the 2006 Junior Ladies final at the Australian Figure Skating Championships, Laura Downing substituted her double axel for a double flip. She initially won the title but in the count back, not including an axel type jump, lost her the title. Ironically, if she had done an axel instead of the double flip, she would have won outright.

[gkelly]

ITA, it's risky. Has anyone ever gotten burned for missing an axel sequence and not having an axel jump in the LP? I can't remember that happening but surely it has on the lower levels?

I saw an example of this recently in a lower-level event with double jumps and single axels. One skater planned a 2F+1A sequence, fell on the flip and didn't do the axel, and then lost all value for a 2Lz (might have been in combo) at the end of the program.

[sequinsgalore]

ITA, it's risky. Has anyone ever gotten burned for missing an axel sequence and not having an axel jump in the LP? I can't remember that happening but surely it has on the lower levels?

I know Shizuka Arakawa did not do a 2A in in her FS at Worlds 2005. She did 3Lz+2Lo, 3S+2T, 3F, 2Lo, 2T, 2Lz+2T+2Lo, 3T*. So her last 3T did not count. According to QR she had planned 3Lz+2Lo, 3S+3T, 3F, 3Lo, 3T, 3Lz, 2A, but her mistakes in the FS caused her to improvise. She placed 9th that year.

[Seerek]

I know Shizuka Arakawa did not do a 2A in in her FS at Worlds 2005. She did 3Lz+2Lo, 3S+2T, 3F, 2Lo, 2T, 2Lz+2T+2Lo, 3T*. So her last 3T did not count. According to QR she had planned 3Lz+2Lo, 3S+3T, 3F, 3Lo, 3T, 3Lz, 2A, but her mistakes in the FS caused her to improvise. She placed 9th that year.

Luckily for her, Japan was still able to retain 3 spots for 2006 Olympics/Worlds because Ando and Suguri placed ahead of her. Imagine losing an Olympic spot due to an element that gets zero points?

Interestingly, 2 axel-3toe combination was practically never seen in competition before CoP due to the fact that in 6.0, more than 7 jumping passes were allowable in ladies, so there really wasn't an incentive to combine those two jumps in combination (and I'm not sure judges in 6.0 mentality would have put much value in the combination, anyway).

[Marco]

Thanks, gkelly.

That is indeed risky planning but still one of the easier ways to do 7 triples under the rules.

Perhaps doing a 2axel 3toe sequence would be safer for that purpose?

I remember one year Yoshie Onda was hit hard by this. She had done 5 hard triples. Her 6th pass was a 3toe 3toe sequence and her 7th pass was a 2axel (maybe also in sequence with another 2axel), all of which she did cleanly. Her 3toes however were judged to be too far apart and so the 2nd 3toe was counted as the 7th pass instead, with the 2axel disregarded (being the 8th pass). Since the first 7 passes did not include an axel, the second 3toe also did not count.

[Triple Butz]

I know Shizuka Arakawa did not do a 2A in in her FS at Worlds 2005. She did 3Lz+2Lo, 3S+2T, 3F, 2Lo, 2T, 2Lz+2T+2Lo, 3T*. So her last 3T did not count. According to QR she had planned 3Lz+2Lo, 3S+3T, 3F, 3Lo, 3T, 3Lz, 2A, but her mistakes in the FS caused her to improvise. She placed 9th that year.

Thanks. I love skating fans. So much more knowledgeable than the journalists who write about it.