Second Jump in Combination Rewarded

[johndockley92]

As you may know, doing the second jump in the combination is harder than doing it first.

I feel like the second jump in a combination should be worth more, so that perhaps the second jump is worth it's value *1.1 or some sort of number, and the third jump in a three jump combo is worth 1.2??

Just a thought

[Marco]

And also, combining a harder jump should be rewarded. That is, doing 3lutz2toe and 3flip should be rewarded more than doing 3flip2toe and 3lutz.

[doubleflutz]

I think combinations need to be rewarded, but I think the best way to do that is to have later jumps in a combination or sequence simply not count against the Zayak rule, instead of trying to come up with a magical formula of relative point values to reward all the different jumps correctly, that then needs to be revised and tweaked every season. It would also have the added benefits of virtually eliminating situations like Nobunari Oda is always getting himself into, plus also provide a real reward to skaters who are capable of doing a 3-3-3 or 4-3-3. It's a very simple, elegant solution.

[Seerek]

As you may know, doing the second jump in the combination is harder than doing it first.

I feel like the second jump in a combination should be worth more, so that perhaps the second jump is worth it's value *1.1 or some sort of number, and the third jump in a three jump combo is worth 1.2??

Just a thought

Yes, this has been discussed in other threads on how to improve CoP, and you're right, there is currently no "bonus" awarded for combinations.

The classic example I use is that:

triple toe - double toe base value = double toe - triple toe base value

which is just crazy, IMO.

Some others have argued that in fact combinations are already being rewarded indirectly, because being able to do a combination successfully "opens up" more jumping passes later in the program to earn more points (not sure if I agree, but it is an argument to keep base values as is).

[wickedwitch]

My idea has always been this: the first jump should have a 1.1 multiplier while the second should have a 1.2

[gkelly]

I think combinations need to be rewarded, but I think the best way to do that is to have later jumps in a combination or sequence simply not count against the Zayak rule, instead of trying to come up with a magical formula of relative point values to reward all the different jumps correctly, that then needs to be revised and tweaked every season. It would also have the added benefits of virtually eliminating situations like Nobunari Oda is always getting himself into, plus also provide a real reward to skaters who are capable of doing a 3-3-3 or 4-3-3. It's a very simple, elegant solution.

I haven't thought this one through. Care to play devil's advocate and figure out the worst ways it could be abused as well as the cases where it would work best?

[BigB08822]

What if ALL combinations had values? Not just the value of the two (or three) jumps added together but a value of their own. So a 3lutz/2toe would have a value that was perhaps slightly higher than adding the two jumps together? As it gets more difficult, the value increases more. A 3toe/2toe may only be very slightly above the value of the jumps added together but a 3axel/3loop may be worth quite a bit more than the jumps just added. I know it would be a huge undertaking because there are so many possible combinations but doing this would allow certain combinations more points and maybe we will start seeing athletes try 2loop/3toe combinations if it gets them more points than their old 3toe/2loop. Same jumps but more risk=more reward. It gets really complicated when you get into the 3jump combos but it can be done, I just seriously doubt ISU will sit down and come up with values for that many things.

[gkelly]

If all the possible combinations need to get values, then you have to include all single jumps as well as doubles, triples, and quads. Skaters who do triples might pop one jump in a combination. Skaters at lower levels might plan singles or pop their doubles.

Then you'd also need values for what happens when one of the jumps in each combo is underrotated or downgraded (different values depending which jump?), or both of them.

The scale of values would fill pages.

[doubleflutz]

I haven't thought this one through. Care to play devil's advocate and figure out the worst ways it could be abused as well as the cases where it would work best?

It could theoretically discourage skaters from learning all 5/6 triples, I suppose? I think that would more likely be a problem mostly for ladies. Think of a layout like this:

3LZ-3T
3F-2LO
3LZ
3F
3T
2A-3T-3T
2A-3T

That's a far more difficult program than anyone is doing today, but there's not a lot of variety there. Would Yuna have been able to do something like this at the Olympics, and just ignore the salchow entirely like she did the loop? Basically, the change would provide a big incentive to become good at combinations and to train for enough endurance to do a lot of them in a program, as opposed to learning to do all the jump take-offs correctly. But that problem already exists now, anyway, and I don't think that's a problem you can fix at the COP level. No matter how big of a reward the system gives to skaters who do all five/six jump entrances, it's not going to matter if there's not a system in place that teaches them how to do it.

Another potential drawback to my proposed change would be that it would probably make skaters who can do triple loop combinations extremely strong. Adelina Sotnikova, for example, assuming she can do two triple-triples and one double-triple-triple all in one program, and get them all ratified, could completely crush everyone, just because she would have four extra 3LOs to someone like Liza T's four extra 3Ts, which in and of itself would crush anyone without the ability to do a lot of 3-3s in one program. Of course, if that actually became a problem, you could limit the combination repeats themselves: apply an "internal" Zayak rule, that only applies once a triple has been used as the back end of a combination or sequence twice.

That would actually be extremely elegant as well, because then the strongest ladies program possible without a triple axel (assuming an axel is still required at all) would be something like this:
3LZ-3T
3F-3LO
2A-3T-3LO
3LZ
3F
3LO
3S

Very balanced, extremely difficult, but not too repetitive, and it stills rewards the skaters who can do all five take-offs, and also rewards those who can do toe loop and loop combinations, instead of just one or the other, which is good given how much of an advantage strong toe jumpers have right now under COP. Plus, even with the added restriction, it's a fairly minimalist solution, that's pretty easy to implement. It's simply adding an incentive to being able to do hard combinations to what already exists. It actually dovetails very nicely with the two two-jump and one three-jump slots.

And also Oda still might be able to win a medal.

[gkelly]

3LZ-3T
3F-2LO
3LZ
3F
3T
2A-3T-3T
2A-3T

Well, that's four combos, which we still wouldn't allow. But change the 3F-2Lo to 3F+3T and leave the last 2A as a solo jump, and you'd have even less variety of skills shown.

I was more concerned with something like this for the men:

4T+3T+3T
4T
3A+3T
3A
3LZ+3T
3F
3T
3Lo

More than half of the jumps are toe loops

And also Oda still might be able to win a medal.

Heh.

[BigB08822]

If all the possible combinations need to get values, then you have to include all single jumps as well as doubles, triples, and quads. Skaters who do triples might pop one jump in a combination. Skaters at lower levels might plan singles or pop their doubles.

Then you'd also need values for what happens when one of the jumps in each combo is underrotated or downgraded (different values depending which jump?), or both of them.

The scale of values would fill pages.

You definitely have a point. My solution would be that any single jumps done in combination get no extra credit, it is just the value of the two/three jumps added together. This would be a problem in 3 jump combos, what if someone does 3/3/1? Should the singled jump negate the combo bonus? I guess it isn't very likely but if the point values could be determined, even if it took a little while, the computer does the rest so it wouldn't or shouldn't delay things during competition.

[Coco]

If GOE was a factor of base value, that would go a long way to take care of this issue.

+1=10%
+2=20%
+3=30%

I'm thinking it could be set up something like that.

It would also get around people chucking combinations they can't do well just to get the bonus.

Currently, +1 on a solo 3z and +1 on a 3x3toe is the same amount. But if it was a percentage of the base value, it would be .6 and 1.23, respectively.

A bonus of 10% on the 2nd jump would give the combo only a .41 bump, so long as it received credit regardless of how poorly performed.

10% on the first jump and 20% on the 2nd would yield 1.64, again, regardless of how it's performed so long as it received credit.

[gkelly]

You definitely have a point. My solution would be that any single jumps done in combination get no extra credit, it is just the value of the two/three jumps added together.

Even 1A+1Lo at the juvenile level?

Remember, the same scale of values is used for all levels, not just senior and junior. To make a different scale for each level would be even more complicated.

This would be a problem in 3 jump combos, what if someone does 3/3/1?

Or 3-1-3, which is how combos with half loop to set up a flip or salchow following are now scored (which is an improvement over calling them sequences and multiplying the whole thing by 80%, which had the paradoxical effect of making 3A+2S sequence worth less than a solo 3A).

The value of the single (half) loop is negligible in itself, so there'd be no great loss in not giving it points, but I'd definitely want the first and last jump to receive full value. Even if one of them ends up being singled. At middle levels, the first one might be a single axel on purpose.

[BigB08822]

More good points. I like having this discussion, though. It is what the ISU needs to be doing. Not all ideas will work (as it appears mine wont work) but how will we find the good ones without hearing them all?

I do like the idea of +GOE being a % of the jump. The only scary thing is this gives the judges a lot of power to hold up someone. I can give someone a +3 on their quad and it would add a lot of points, I am sure. However, any subjective sport will have places where judges can cheat which is what PCS is used for now.

[doubleflutz]

I was more concerned with something like this for the men:

4T+3T+3T
4T
3A+3T
3A
3LZ+3T
3F
3T
3Lo

Well, with my proposed fix, you'd have something like this instead:
4T-3T
3A-3T-3LO
3LZ-3LO
4T
3A
3F
3LO
3S

So you're still hitting all six take-offs. The only issue would be finding a guy who could jump that! I know Oda's landed all of that in competition apart from the 3LZ-3LO, which he may also have done at some point that I'm not aware of. Has Kevin Reynolds done any of his 3-3-3s with a loop on the end? I'm fairly sure KVDP hasn't, and I think Plushenko only ever got 4T-3T-3LO ratified once or twice.

So, to max out the potential of all four "bonus" combination triples, you'd have to have someone who was an extremely strong and skilled jumper. 3-3-3/4-3-3-3 is super difficult, and so is doing a loop on the end of a combination. They're important, difficult skills above and beyond just being able to do a combination and jump well, so I think any system should reward them, no matter how it actually goes about doing that. As it is, the slot for a three-jump pass is like a joke, because it's almost a penalty on a skater who can actually do 3-3-3.

Then you have someone like Yuzuru Hanyu, who can actually do 3A-3A, and I think 4T-3A as well. That's an amazing, extremely difficult and special combination, and doing it in competition under COP right now is completely stupid, because even leaving aside the risk with potential Zayak snarls, he would still be better off repeating the 3As in two seperate jumping passes as a 3-3, instead of wasting his three-slot in order to do it. But if he can put three triple axels in the program by doing two of them as 3A-3A, that's definitely worth doing. It's still a big risk, but it's a sane risk, one with a level of reward that's porportionate to the danger and chance of failure.

More than half of the jumps are toe loops

Is that really such a bad thing for men specifically, though? As it is, for senior international men, for the most part a solo toe loop is a thing of the past. Being able to do a quad toe and being able to land a triple toe as the second or third jump in a combination are both skills far above and beyond just "can do a triple toe loop". Zayak was basically doing like four toe or five solo toe loops in a single program, wasn't she? A skater doing 4T-3T, 4T, 3A-3T, 3LZ-3T-3LO all in the same program just isn't a problem on the same level to me, because all of those have added difficulty beyond "toe loop". Now, a skater doing 4T, 4T, 4 "Toe Walley"e, 4 "Toe Walley"e, all in the same program, that would be worth making a rule to stop if we didn't already have Zayak.

[gkelly]

If GOE was a factor of base value, that would go a long way to take care of this issue.

I like this.

I do like the idea of +GOE being a % of the jump. The only scary thing is this gives the judges a lot of power to hold up someone. I can give someone a +3 on their quad and it would add a lot of points, I am sure.

Well, you'd have to have several judges in collusion for it to make a big difference.

If only one judge gives +3 and everyone else gives 0 and +1, then the +3 is thrown out and the skater is no better off than if that judge had given another +1.

If one or more judges gave +2, then one judge giving +3 would mean all the +2s would count. So if the jump is really only worth +1 on average, then that +3 would help, but only by one-seventh of however much 20% of the base value is worth, after averaging.

And if several judges are honestly inspired to award +2 or +3 because it really was that excellent a jump and met 4, 5, 6 or more positive bullet points, then that wouldn't be the judges holding up the skater, but rather the quality of the jump holding up the skater.

However, if we don't think that an excellent quad should be worth that much more than a pretty-good quad, then the percentages probably need to be lower, at least for quads.

3-3-3s with a loop on the end? I'm fairly sure KVDP hasn't,

Yes, he has, but the loop was the hardest jump in the combo.

I'm too lazy to search for other examples that I don't remember off the top of my head.

[johndockley92]

^^ KVP did sal toe loop.