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  1. #1

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    Should IJS change how jumps are valued for ladies.

    While its clear the mens doing quads is rewarded big time; I think one could argue that ladies having the harder triples/doing them isn't really rewarded. This is not a hit on any skater; but rather what can be done in the future. I think perhaps their should be a more different scaled value for the women than there is for the men.

    Also I really think combinations aren't rewarded enough. I mean they are rewarded big time in the short program; but I think there needs to be something more for doing them in the long. One thing I can't help thinking is why not say that as long as they aren't repeating the same combination and with a limit of only three combinations; why not say that men AND women can repeat a triple at the end of a combination without being affected by the rule. (And do a 3toe on its own).

    This would encourage girls (and guys) to go for 3/3/3 combinations again in competition. And reward having the harder combos.

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    I think it would get cumbersome to have different jump value tables for men and women. I also do not think the rule should be changed to let skaters keep sticking triple toe loops on the back of half their jumps.

    To me, the place the rules/scoring need to be changed is to better reward skaters (men and women) for showing us all 6 different jump takeoffs. Before COP, all the top ladies did (or at least attempted) a triple lutz, flip, loop, salchow and toeloop. The judges simply expected and demanded it. I think the ISU needs to adjust the scoring somehow so that skaters looking at the podium know they can't get there on just 3 or 4 different triples.

    This could be done pretty easily. They could either add six different takeoffs to the balanced program rule or simply award a point bonus for programs with triples using all 6 takeoffs (less the 3A for ladies). Another possibility would be employing a multiplier to reduce the value of any repeated jump. For example, the second time it is used, the jump would be worth only 80% of its table value.

  3. #3

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    I would like to see the women rewarded more on the basis of the height of and distance covered by their jumps rather than added revolutions. You see tiny little girls doing tiny little jumps that don't cover any ice, then when they grow, they are finished. Tiny jumps don't add much excitement to skating, and when the skaters burn out so quickly they don't have time to develop presentation skills.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    I would like to see the women rewarded more on the basis of the height of and distance covered by their jumps rather than added revolutions. You see tiny little girls doing tiny little jumps that don't cover any ice, then when they grow, they are finished. Tiny jumps don't add much excitement to skating, and when the skaters burn out so quickly they don't have time to develop presentation skills.
    But this penalizes those who are simply smaller or not as strong. For some girls, higher jumps come naturally, and it's not always an indication of technique. There is already a reward for those skaters with bigger jumps and I don't think this needs to be increased.

  5. #5

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    I would like to see jump sequences get 100% value of both jumps and jump combination get 110 or 120% value. That would encourage using the harder triples in combinations because the reward would be larger. Right now, a 3T/3T and a solo 3Lz has the same value as a 3Lz/3T and a solo 3T. It would also be great if it could be worked out so that if the second jump in the combo had more revolutions than the first jump there was some sort of bonus. I'm not sure how that would work within the whole context of the scale of values though ... it could throw things out of whack.

    I also like the idea of a bonus for all all six take-offs, but there would need to be very clear rules about the quality of the jumps in order to get the bonus.
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

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    I'm not for the change of base value of jumps alone, but I definitely think a 3/3 combo should be rewarded more : *1.1 for example.
    Because it's clear that doing a 3F/3T is harder than doing a 3F and a 3T.

  7. #7
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    I'd like to see doing a complete arsenal of jumps rewarded before the lutz goes the way of high-button shoes.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    This would encourage girls (and guys) to go for 3/3/3 combinations again in competition. And reward having the harder combos.
    "Again"? When has any girl ever done a 3-3-3 combination in competition?

    I can't remember any guy other than van der Perren doing one either.



    In general, I'd like to see bonus multiplier for the second (or third) jump in a combination.

    My proposal for variety of takeoffs was 2.0 bonus for six different takeoffs with 2 or more revolutions, 4.0 bonus for six different takeoffs with 3 or more revolutions. (For ladies, the 4.0 bonus could include double axel, i.e., 2.5 or more revolutions.) Jumps count toward the bonus if the GOE is -1 or higher and no edge call or downgrade <<. I think we could allow jumps with underrotation < if the rest of the jump was good enough to score no worse than -1.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by mag View Post
    I would like to see jump sequences get 100% value of both jumps and jump combination get 110 or 120% value. That would encourage using the harder triples in combinations because the reward would be larger. Right now, a 3T/3T and a solo 3Lz has the same value as a 3Lz/3T and a solo 3T. It would also be great if it could be worked out so that if the second jump in the combo had more revolutions than the first jump there was some sort of bonus. I'm not sure how that would work within the whole context of the scale of values though ... it could throw things out of whack.

    I also like the idea of a bonus for all all six take-offs, but there would need to be very clear rules about the quality of the jumps in order to get the bonus.
    I had always wondered why COP does not reward jump combinations, particularly difficult ones, like 3L-3t or 3f-3R and so on. A combination is so much more difficult than those jumps done separately. I definitely like your idea of a 20% bonus for difficult combinations (f,L,A with either t or R) and 10% bonus for easier combinations (3t-3t).

    I think it would create too many complications if men and womens jumps had different values. I would like to see them stay the same but something needs to be done to encourage women to do difficult jumps (solo and in combination). Right now the ladies discipline has regressed to the 1980's jumpwise. In 1992 they were doing triple axel combinations, 3L3t combinations to set themselves apart from the rest of the field. Now the focus seems to be (once again) being pretty princesses on ice.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    "Again"? When has any girl ever done a 3-3-3 combination in competition?

    I can't remember any guy other than van der Perren doing one either.


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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    "Again"? When has any girl ever done a 3-3-3 combination in competition?
    Their were ladies practicing it back in the day. Arakawa to name one; I believe Irina. Now thanks to this scoring system; what's the point?

    The men were certainly going for it/flirting with it. I remember Yags/Plush were practicing it. Plush attempted it; now once again not rewarded.

    I think its extremely sad that there's no encouragement to do difficult combinations. The 3axel/3toe use to be standard for men; now not so much either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Their were ladies practicing it back in the day. Arakawa to name one; I believe Irina. Now thanks to this scoring system; what's the point?
    But they never tried it in competition. And at least one current lady (Gracie Gold) has been practicing one recently. Most cutting-edge jump content takes a long time to make it from practice ice to competition even one first time let alone consistently. Compare practice to practice and there isn't much difference.

    The 3axel/3toe use to be standard for men; now not so much either.
    That particular combination became standard in the mid-90s when enough guys were able to use it as their short program jump combination to maximize SP content. Then just a few years later it started to become less common beginning in 1998-99 when the men were allowed to do solo triple axel instead of double axel in the SP, and allowed to do quads as the solo jump. By the time quad combinations were allowed in the SP in early 2000s, 3A+3T had become much less popular because it wasn't as useful in the SP in the last years of 6.0.

    If you started requiring solo double axel and forbidding quads in the SP again, you'd see lots of 3A+3T there again.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Their were ladies practicing it back in the day. Arakawa to name one; I believe Irina. Now thanks to this scoring system; what's the point? ....
    I'm not sure it is the fault of the scoring system. More a result of having the technology available to check the rotation on jumps. Remember when kids were taught to always get up from a fall in a landing position - just in case a judge missed the fall? Not likely to have happened at the international level, but there were lots of cheated triples out there that passed as clean jumps. If you only had to do 2.5 rotations on the 3loop as the second jump, you would be more likely to try it.
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

  14. #14

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    I think the men and women can have the same values for jumps but they still need to be changed. Something needs to be done in order to give more value to the loop, flip and lutz. IMO. Isn't the 3loop only 1 point more than a salchow? It SEEMS to be harder than that. The salchow and toe are the jumps a lot of people get when they first begin doing triples but a lot of people never get past those. I also think about how we always see pairs doing SBS toes and salchows but hardly ever the other jumps. The jumps seem to get much harder starting with the loop and the points do not reflect that, IMO.

    I think it is very possible that 2 of this year's World's medalists will be competing with content that was par for the course in the mid 80's. Why? Because they can win/medal by doing so. The COP is encouraging this and until it changes ladies skating will be seen as a joke.
    -Brian
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    There needs to be bigger point differences. The point difference between a triple toe and a triple lutz is only 1.9 points now, which is outrageous. On top of that, the flip has a point value closer to the loop, which is also ridiculous considering most senior ladies can't even do the flip.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by nlyoung View Post
    But this penalizes those who are simply smaller or not as strong. For some girls, higher jumps come naturally, and it's not always an indication of technique. There is already a reward for those skaters with bigger jumps and I don't think this needs to be increased.
    It is a sport. A teeny tiny girl hopping straight up into 3 rotations 2 inches off the ice is not an indication of technique either, which is why so many of them flame out when they start to grow.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Their were ladies practicing it back in the day. Arakawa to name one; I believe Irina. Now thanks to this scoring system; what's the point?
    imo, we shouldn't even encourage 3-3-3's until 3-3's have been more widely perfected. irina and arakawa are great jumpers but even their 3-3's were often sloppy or under-rotated. yuna kim's 3-3's are magnificently consistent. i don't think we should jump the shark

    i think more points should be given to skaters who attempt at least 5 types of triples. it seems this is a general consensus on here too

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Their were ladies practicing it back in the day. Arakawa to name one; I believe Irina. Now thanks to this scoring system; what's the point?
    ??? Both were practicing these combinations DURING CoP...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by iarispiralllyof View Post
    imo, we shouldn't even encourage 3-3-3's until 3-3's have been more widely perfected. irina and arakawa are great jumpers but even their 3-3's were often sloppy or under-rotated. yuna kim's 3-3's are magnificently consistent. i don't think we should jump the shark

    i think more points should be given to skaters who attempt at least 5 types of triples. it seems this is a general consensus on here too
    Or... We could make the rule again saying that women are required to attempt all five triples...

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Or... We could make the rule again saying that women are required to attempt all five triples...
    I've suggested this in other threads, but I think the ISU should rotate the solo jump for the sp in seniors like they do in juniors. They should give the option to do a double, but it would be a great incentive for senior ladies to keep practicing their least favorite triples since the point difference for a double instead of a triple in the sp could really hurt them in the standings. It would also bring back some of the "do-or-die" feel that the sp used to have.

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