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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Being drunk is generally see as equal to not giving consent, although the courts will probably need more than that.
    I've often wondered what happens when both parties are drunk and can't properly say yes (or no?). Could either party later claim rape?

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    Japanfan, I don't think that Karina1974 is necessarily blaming the victim. There is no type to get raped, anyone can be a victim. However, we can take precautions to lessen our vulnerability. While it certainly is possible to be raped by someone you've known for a while, I do think a woman puts herself at more at risk going somewhere private with a stranger. Especially if she's been drinking and has less control. There are just certain commonsense things that you should not do.

    As far as being drunk as equal to not giving consent, I disagree. Unless the woman actually says no or is passed out. First of all, how drunk is too drunk to give consent? Second, if that becomes a legal definition, how many ticked off women who don't get called back by a guy they had sex with, after a few drinks, might claim rape? I think it's far too inconsistent.

    My initial reaction to this case was the same as yours. Sad that once again a woman's credibility was called into question. But, after more came out (especially the texts afterward) I do not believe she is credible. Adding to the "sad" is that with each woman who makes a false claim of rape, a life is ruined and more women who are actually raped are not seen as credible.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Now, please do not take this as condemnation or blame, under other circumstances where a woman does change her mind. But, women do have to be more cognizant of what they are doing. Not that they would deserve to be forced into sex, date rape, but do not bring a stranger to any place where you will be alone. It is dangerous. Again, I'm not saying that as a blame issue, but rather a precautionary measure. We do need to be more careful with our own safety.
    Yes, we do, but I'm not sure how repeating it over and over relates to this particular story.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by WindSpirit View Post
    Yes, we do, but I'm not sure how repeating it over and over relates to this particular story.
    I have kids, it can never be said enough

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Japanfan, I don't think that Karina1974 is necessarily blaming the victim.
    I disagree. I think she indicated that if you don't follow her checklist, you're asking for trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    There is no type to get raped, anyone can be a victim. However, we can take precautions to lessen our vulnerability. While it certainly is possible to be raped by someone you've known for a while, I do think a woman puts herself at more at risk going somewhere private with a stranger. Especially if she's been drinking and has less control. There are just certain commonsense things that you should not do.
    This case aside, simply because I don't know enough to even comment on it...

    My main problem with this line of thinking is even if you say it's a precaution, someone else will say a woman put herself in harms way and thus shoulders some responsibility for her attack. That is such unbelievable bull shit. I don't go down dark alleys alone, don't travel home late unless I'm with someone, and so on and so forth. I do those things out of fear, but I shouldn't have to. The onus SHOULD be put on those who attack women in those circumstances instead of women who find themselves in tough predicaments.

    I also feel as though it's telling someone who may have been attacked and raped that their suffering isn't valid, or at least as valid as someone else who "followed all the rules." What's sad is I know people who feel that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    As far as being drunk as equal to not giving consent, I disagree. Unless the woman actually says no or is passed out. First of all, how drunk is too drunk to give consent? Second, if that becomes a legal definition, how many ticked off women who don't get called back by a guy they had sex with, after a few drinks, might claim rape? I think it's far too inconsistent.
    How this turns into some scorned woman argument is beyond me, but...

    Have you ever been so drunk, you can barely function? I have, and it was awful. Thank goodness I was with friends who made sure the worst thing that could happen was I fell over or said something stupid. It's a great thing for women to know their limits with alcohol, but sometimes it doesn't happen for whatever reason. I think in most situations, a man who has control of his faculties and chooses to have "consensual" sex with a woman that is more than a bit tipsy is taking advantage of her-- at the very least. If he's in the same super-inebriated boat, well... I'm not so opinionated.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    I've often wondered what happens when both parties are drunk and can't properly say yes (or no?). Could either party later claim rape?
    From our discussions about it in college orientation, that'd be a situation you definitely do not want to find yourself in, because it's a huge mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andora View Post
    I disagree. I think she indicated that if you don't follow her checklist, you're asking for trouble.
    And I don't think she meant that.

    My main problem with this line of thinking is even if you say it's a precaution, someone else will say a woman put herself in harms way and thus shoulders some responsibility for her attack. That is such unbelievable bull shit. I don't go down dark alleys alone, don't travel home late unless I'm with someone, and so on and so forth. I do those things out of fear, but I shouldn't have to. The onus SHOULD be put on those who attack women in those circumstances instead of women who find themselves in tough predicaments.

    I also feel as though it's telling someone who may have been attacked and raped that their suffering isn't valid, or at least as valid as someone else who "followed all the rules." What's sad is I know people who feel that way
    That's crap. How is telling a woman to be careful with regard to where she goes and who she goes with blaming her or telling her her suffering is invalid :roll eyes:.

    Fact - there are common sense things we should do to lessen our vulnerability. Fact - it sucks that we have to do that. Fact - there are bad people in the world. Fact - all of the "I should be able to do what I want and go where I want safely" doesn't change that. You don't go down dark alleys, in dangerous areas, alone, because you know it's unsafe. It is unsafe to get blind drunk and go to a private place with some guy you don't know. That doesn't mean that you would bear responsibility for being raped or attacked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    And my point is that number 1 is NOT FISHY.

    I agree with you that 2-4 are fishy.
    I actually don't think #2 is fishy either. If she was drunk or drugged, she wouldn't remember and not remembering is a very good indication that there was no consent as she wasn't in a state to give consent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andora View Post
    My main problem with this line of thinking is even if you say it's a precaution, someone else will say a woman put herself in harms way and thus shoulders some responsibility for her attack.
    Well, people say stupid sh!t all the time. That doesn't mean we shouldn't teach people how to take care of themselves and minimize their risks. There are some basic safety precautions anyone can take and not all of them are so obvious that we don't have to educate people as to what they are.
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    Being drunk and not remembering is not equal to being passed out and some people are more than able to give consent but still not remember it the next day. I know when I get drunk enough I often have very little or fuzzy memory of certain parts of the night but if you asked my friends they would say I was completely aware and didn't even appear to be very drunk. If I had sex with someone I would have been more than able to give my permission but not remember it the next day. Being drunk is not an excuse to say I don't remember THEREFORE it was rape. She has no way of knowing she was raped and she clearly didn't think so for 3 months as she continued to text and flirt with this man.
    -Brian
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  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    That's crap. How is telling a woman to be careful with regard to where she goes and who she goes with blaming her or telling her her suffering is invalid :roll eyes:.

    Fact - there are common sense things we should do to lessen our vulnerability. Fact - it sucks that we have to do that. Fact - there are bad people in the world. Fact - all of the "I should be able to do what I want and go where I want safely" doesn't change that. You don't go down dark alleys, in dangerous areas, alone, because you know it's unsafe. It is unsafe to get blind drunk and go to a private place with some guy you don't know. That doesn't mean that you would bear responsibility for being raped or attacked.
    I agree that the world can be a scary place and we have to take care. But every time a discussion about rape comes up, so does this argument. I think it's a slippery slope because I HAVE seen people come right out and say a woman bears some responsibility for her attack because she didn't follow every single precaution necessary. I'm glad you're not saying that, but I honestly feel every time we spout the same old, "well, you have to protect yourself" argument it continues to feed into that.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    Being drunk and not remembering is not equal to being passed out and some people are more than able to give consent but still not remember it the next day. I know when I get drunk enough I often have very little or fuzzy memory of certain parts of the night but if you asked my friends they would say I was completely aware and didn't even appear to be very drunk.
    Well I say if you were so drunk you couldn't remember then by definition you were too drunk to give consent. This is similar to the law that says that if a person is young enough, they can't give consent either. There has to be a certain amount of ability to think rationally and understand the implications of your behavior to be able to give consent. If it's not there, it's not there no matter how it appeared.

    That doesn't mean I'd fault someone who had sex with you if you didn't appear to be out of your mind. OTOH, if you friends were drinking too, I'm not sure I'd trust their judgement about how lucid you were.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post

    That doesn't mean I'd fault someone who had sex with you if you didn't appear to be out of your mind.
    Someone like Greg Kelly?
    3539 and counting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Well I say if you were so drunk you couldn't remember then by definition you were too drunk to give consent. This is similar to the law that says that if a person is young enough, they can't give consent either. There has to be a certain amount of ability to think rationally and understand the implications of your behavior to be able to give consent. If it's not there, it's not there no matter how it appeared.

    That doesn't mean I'd fault someone who had sex with you if you didn't appear to be out of your mind. OTOH, if you friends were drinking too, I'm not sure I'd trust their judgement about how lucid you were.
    Part of the problem with this is that it's hard to prove. Unless there is a breathalyzer done, how can anyone know if the person's blood alcohol level is high enough to render them incapable of consent. As you said, if your friends have been hitting the booze too, how capable are they to evaluate your state?This is a slippery slope as well.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    Someone like Greg Kelly?
    I think it will be shown that there is sufficient information there to prove he did not rape this woman.

    Bat, as to your response to MacMadame's point, would you suggest that no man should ever have sex with a woman who has had any alcohol? Especially one he doesn't really know? Because sometimes you can appear quite lucid, even though you've had too much. How can the man know what your tolerance is? If you seem fine, seem enthused, and say yes, what should he think/do? Of course I do think they both are pretty stupid, since this (allegedly) resulted in a pregnancy. How can anyone have unprotected sex with a stranger - female or male.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I think it will be shown that there is sufficient information there to prove he did not rape this woman.

    Bat, as to your response to MacMadame's point, would you suggest that no man should ever have sex with a woman who has had any alcohol?
    I think you should read MacMadame's statement again, understand what she said and then read my reply.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    I think you should read MacMadame's statement again, understand what she said and then read my reply.
    I'm not sure that I understand how you are taking her statement.

    She said she would not fault someone for having sex with you, if you didn't appear to be out of your mind. I don't think she meant that she wouldn't fault him if he forced himself. I think she meant that, if you appear lucid and capable of making a decision, how is the guy at fault? Should a guy have you sign an affidavit that you are of sound mind and capable of consent for sex? How can a guy know how drunk a woman is, if she appears okay? I have been out and had a bit too much wine. I was fine, could certainly make decisions, but got in the car (not driving) and suddenly it hit me. What if the yes is given while still cognizant?

  17. #77

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    milanessa was saying that according to what MaMadame said that she should find no fault with Greg Kelly.
    -Brian
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    Who is Bat?

    I haven't read enough about this case to have an opinion about what Greg Kelly did or did not do. I was responding more to the situation of rape in general.

    I do think that just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong. Likewise just because it's legal, that doesn't mean it's right. And this doesn't even get into the idea of whether or not something is stupid!

    So the idea that you should do a breathalyzer test and it's okay to have sex if the person blows .07 but not if they blow .12 is just silly. If someone is drunk and you have sex with them and you don't know them very well, you've done something stupid. It's stupid no matter what their blood alcohol level is and it's stupid even if nothing bad happens afterwards.

    OTOH, if they also clearly can't give consent and you have sex with them anyway, then it's not just dumb, it's wrong. And possibly illegal depending on where you live and what the circumstances are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    milanessa was saying that according to what MaMadame said that she should find no fault with Greg Kelly.
    No, milanessa was asking a question. You are inferring that's what she wants me to say but she didn't actually say that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    No, milanessa was asking a question. You are inferring that's what she wants me to say but she didn't actually say that.
    Technically....lol
    -Brian
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