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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    There are so many reasons rape victims could have waited for so long. Rape is extremely traumatic event. There's tons of self-blame and denial going on. It's also very difficult for some victims to able to tell their story after it happens.
    Yup, exactly; I think we are in complete agreement here.
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic View Post
    And you're obviously one of those women who believe that if you jump all over someone who claims she was raped by dissecting and criticizing her every move then you'll never be raped yourself.
    No, but I will tell you one thing, I would not consider for one second doing what she did - going out for drinks and then going someplace private with someone I don't know well enough to know that said person has the self-control enough to be able to keep my welfare in mind, above and beyond whatever he may have in mind. The only time I have done the drinks-and-then-someplace-private was when I'd known the guy for well over a year, and what ended up happening was completely consensual on both sides.

    I also have no problem with letting people know where I draw the line about how close I let people get to me. There was a minor fire across the street from my apartment 2 weeks ago, and while I was outside watching it (at 1:30/2:00 AM) I was conversing with a guy who lives 2 streets west of me. During the course of the conversation he said something to the point of us "maybe going out sometime." I turned right around on him and said firmly - "2 things. #1 - I don't 'date.' #2 - I don't 'drink.' And if you ever come around ringing my doorbell unannounced, you WILL be dealt with accordingly, because I don't allow that privilege to anyone who isn't a blood relative." And mind you, there's cops standing around as I'm saying this (and the fact that my building's super is a Troy City cop had already come up in the conversation) . Didn't stop the conversation, but it did set him back a bit, and he didn't mention it again.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karina1974 View Post
    I was conversing with a guy who lives 2 streets west of me. During the course of the conversation he said something to the point of us "maybe going out sometime." I turned right around on him and said firmly - "2 things. #1 - I don't 'date.' #2 - I don't 'drink.' And if you ever come around ringing my doorbell unannounced, you WILL be dealt with accordingly, because I don't allow that privilege to anyone who isn't a blood relative."
    Um, why would you say/do that? You could just say (if an when he actually asked you out), "Thanks, but I'd like to just be friends."

    Easy, and no drama. Also, sometimes friends go out with each other too (non-romantically that is). Just because two people go out for coffee doesn't mean there's a romantic relationship in the mix.

    Not everything has to be a pull the switchblade moment....

  4. #24
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    There are plenty of women who don't report rape at all, and I've known several personally whom have waited 3-8 months (the longest I can think of) to report it because of the mixture of denial, shame, guilt, and 'wanting to be strong enough to get through it on their own.'

    That she waited 3 months doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

    And I am absolutely appalled that so many people here jumped immediately to the conclusion that she made it up. I'm not saying that's not a possibility, but there are so many times when I see this reaction. I've seen it about those friends mentioned before. It's disgusting. No means no, no matter what the situation is. And Karina, the 'she was asking for it' attitude is beyond awful, not that I'm terribly surprised that that's your attitude.

  5. #25
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    You sound delightful, Karina.

    But, anyway, obviously there is a lot we all don't know, nor will ever know.

    Rape is serious and horrific, and ITA there is no blueprint for reporting it.

    I don't think (/ want to think) that she made this up, but I wonder if she is incorrectly filling in some blanks. The report (/ his claim?) of flirty texts afterward has me sleuthing that the woman's reported pregnancy by Kelly might be when she first knew/will claim she first knew that she had had intercourse with the guy.

    If this is a case of "I don't remember having sex, and therefore I was raped," some will vilify this man immediately and forever, but it should NOT be assumed, and it should be a tough case to prove. Alcohol blacking out can happen post-"event", as it did to me last month when I had (still have) a blackout of the last 90 minutes or so of a long party, at which I was not exhibiting high signs of drunkedness nor inability to function. Sex would likely leave more of an impression on me, and perhaps survive my blackout. Rape would likely leave even MORE of an impression on me, and I'd hope surely survive my blackout.

    ... aaand, I've gone and provided conjecture to "facts" and "claims" not yet reported or claimed. Back to reality TV threads for me.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karina1974 View Post
    I turned right around on him and said firmly - "2 things. #1 - I don't 'date.' #2 - I don't 'drink.' And if you ever come around ringing my doorbell unannounced, you WILL be dealt with accordingly, because I don't allow that privilege to anyone who isn't a blood relative." And mind you, there's cops standing around as I'm saying this (and the fact that my building's super is a Troy City cop had already come up in the conversation) . Didn't stop the conversation, but it did set him back a bit, and he didn't mention it again.
    No one goes to your house unannounced? What about the UPS guy, girl scouts, someone looking for their dog? What if someone was in distress and needed to use a phone urgently, would you call the cops? Seriously, massive overreaction for a very noncommittal, in passing, comment that you "maybe go out sometime".

    The guy suggested "going out sometime", he didn't suggest dating or the consumption of alcohol, he didn't suggest a quick f*ck in the nearest alley (though since that's not a 'drink' or a 'date', maybe that would be acceptable?!), why the need to be so rude? Couldn't you just politely decline with a "no, thanks"?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karina1974 View Post
    I was conversing with a guy who lives 2 streets west of me. During the course of the conversation he said something to the point of us "maybe going out sometime." I turned right around on him and said firmly - "2 things. #1 - I don't 'date.' #2 - I don't 'drink.' And if you ever come around ringing my doorbell unannounced, you WILL be dealt with accordingly, because I don't allow that privilege to anyone who isn't a blood relative." And mind you, there's cops standing around as I'm saying this (and the fact that my building's super is a Troy City cop had already come up in the conversation) . Didn't stop the conversation, but it did set him back a bit, and he didn't mention it again.
    Poor guy. It's going to take a lot for him to get the confidence to ask another girl out again , and it makes it awfully awkward when you run into him again.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic View Post
    Sigh...attitudes like the above are part of the problem, imo. Who gives a feck why she took him to her office? All that matters is that he didn't take no for an answer. At least this is what she is alleging.
    Actually, her story is rather questionable. See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    Whether or not this is true, sources have been published saying that the woman met Greg on a street, and they spoke. They got each other's contact info, and separated. They decided to meet up for drinks another night, after texting each other for a little bit. The night they met for drinks is the one where the incident occurred. Not the first night they met.

    The local radio news here reported that the woman said that she was unable to consent - that she was too drunk to consent. That she may have invited him back to her office for the reasons people suspect, but in the end, she changed her mind. However, the woman has said (again, according to "sources") that she was so intoxicated, that she doesn't remember some things from that night.
    But, is that rape? She invited him to her office, because her boyfriend was home. From what is coming out now, she only reported the rape after her boyfriend found some of her text messages to Kelly. Did she change her mind before the sex or after she got caught? Or, maybe because Kelly never called her again?

    Sources also say that Greg has a series of text messages that the woman had sent him after their encounter in the office, which the source claims were "flirtatious." Greg has given those text messages to the DA's office.
    One of those texts, allegedly, says "Why haven't you called me?"

    Sounds like a woman snubbed and a woman who got caught. I hope that Kelly sues, if she is lying. Even if he is cleared of the accusations, he will always be tainted by the it. This is the sort of thing (if she is lying) that makes it harder for women who are raped.

  9. #29
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    Inviting someone up to your office, or going out for drinks is absolutely not permission for anything beyond that, and date rape is extremely serious and any allegation of it should be investigated thoroughly.

    But likewise, false allegations of rape is extremely serious because the mere accusation can seriously damage a person's reputation.

    I don't have any of the facts in this situation, but so far it sounds like the people who have investigated and have access to the info, don't believe the allegations to be true. And the police department recused themselves from investigating and left it to the DA's office to avoid the chance for improper influence since his dad is the police commissioner. So far, it sounds like the investigation was handled properly, but if there are other factors involved, they'll likely come out soon enough.
    "The Devil is joining in, and that's never a good sign." Phil Liggett

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garden Kitty View Post
    Inviting someone up to your office, or going out for drinks is absolutely not permission for anything beyond that, and date rape is extremely serious and any allegation of it should be investigated thoroughly.
    I completely agree. The sticky thing, though, is what would she invite him up to her office? Obviously, she expected something to happen, that she didn't want her boyfriend to see. I suppose that it's possible that he forced himself on her, but it just doesn't ring true, in this case.

    But likewise, false allegations of rape is extremely serious because the mere accusation can seriously damage a person's reputation.
    Exactly. What is disturbing, is that this is still just an accusation, not a formal charge, this is supposed to be confidential until there is a formal charge. I think whoever leaked Kelly's name should be taken to task.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Exactly. What is disturbing, is that this is still just an accusation, not a formal charge, this is supposed to be confidential until there is a formal charge. I think whoever leaked Kelly's name should be taken to task.
    Like the possibility in this case? Joe Scarborough was livid when he was talking about this on "Morning Joe" the other day (Thursday or Friday morning, I can't remember). He was more incensed at the NYTimes publishing this story in the absence of any solid evidence...
    Witt’s accuser has not gone to the police, nor filed what Yale considers a formal complaint. The New York Times has not spoken with her and does not know her name.
    The NYTimes isn't the only organization at fault here; the Rhodes Trust and Yale area also at fault.

    I have absolutely no sympathy for any man found guilty of any form of sexual assault. I do have sympathy for those whose lives have been ruined by false accusations. In the case of this young football player, if nothing comes of the alleged accusations, the damage has already been done. That is sad.
    Haunting the Princess of Pink since 20/07/11...

  12. #32
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    ^^ I knew about this young man and the Rhodes/Yale football game decision. I was unaware of the sexual assault allegations. Wow, that's awful.

  13. #33

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    "Reliable Sources" on CNN is just about to do a story on Witt's case and NYTimes article, along with something about the story that started this thread.
    Haunting the Princess of Pink since 20/07/11...

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    And I am absolutely appalled that so many people here jumped immediately to the conclusion that she made it up. I'm not saying that's not a possibility, but there are so many times when I see this reaction. I've seen it about those friends mentioned before. It's disgusting. No means no, no matter what the situation is.
    The 'public' has a right to be skeptical especially because it's happened before, many times. An accusation like hers until proven can be devastating to whoever was accused even if found she lied. The stigma will never go away. So excuse me for wanting a few answers before I crucify the man.

    Also I can easily turn your words around on you.

    I am absolutely appalled that you jumped immediately to the conclusion that he did it.

    Until all the facts come out, I'm going to go with innocent until proven otherwise.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    And I am absolutely appalled that so many people here jumped immediately to the conclusion that she made it up. I'm not saying that's not a possibility, but there are so many times when I see this reaction. I've seen it about those friends mentioned before. It's disgusting. No means no, no matter what the situation is. And Karina, the 'she was asking for it' attitude is beyond awful, not that I'm terribly surprised that that's your attitude.
    No one "asks for it". No one should ever be forced to have sexual relations. But, this situation just doesn't sound right. Every situation needs to be evaluated individually. Just because people don't believe this woman, it doesn't mean that they don't usually believe it if a woman claims to have been assaulted. My biggest "red flag" on this case is the fact that she didn't report it as assault until her boyfriend found the texts and she got caught. So, for me that would imply that she was trying to cover her butt. I also wonder why a person who was sexually assaulted would contact the assaulter and ask them why they are not calling them. Something smells bad with this. And this should never have become public unless and until there were formal charges, which there are not.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karina1974 View Post
    I don't 'date.'
    I can see why.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karina1974 View Post
    I disagree. You are the one who doesn't "get it."

    Obviously you weren't raised to think about the consequences of your actions BEFORE commencing said actions, such as putting onesself, as this woman did, in a situation that that could well turn out to be compromising for her - going out for drinks with a man she didn't even know beforehand, and then going someplace private when she didn't have the slightest clue whether or not she should be putting her trust in him.
    Almost ALL first dates involve going out with a man you don't know that well beforehand. Most of us do not date the boys we've known 10+ years. And I don't know how it is where you live, but here, most first dates involve either going to get coffee or going out for drinks. And are you seriously telling me that never in the history of your dating career, you've never, ever invited a guy back to your place maybe a little earlier than dating wisdom says you should have? I have. Most of us have. Most of the time it does not end in violence, but if it does, it's not the victim's fault. You don't get to blame the victim so you yourself can feel safer.

    But besides all that, whatever her errors in judgement were, it doesn't excuse his behavior. .Rape is not a crime of passion. It is not "I got so turned on I couldn't stop." Rape is about violence and power over someone you perceive to be weaker.

    You don't have sex without the other person's consent. That's the law. If you break that law, it's called rape. It's very simple. Anything else is just smoke and mirrors.
    "The practice of sport is a human right. Every individual must have the possibility of practicing sport, without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play." –Olympic Charter

  18. #38

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    I still think this is a case of regret and I doubt charges are ever brought against him. Unfortunately people will probably blame his father's connections as the reason and he will have his name forever tarnished. Who continues to flirt with their rapist? She doesn't even remember much of the night but that does NOT mean she was passed out. She may have been initiating everything and she just has no memory of it or a very fuzzy memory. That is not rape, that is called regret.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karina1974 View Post
    Obviously you weren't raised to [...]
    You're being tacky, to say the least.

    In addition, whatever conversation and interacting they were doing could have been done right there at the bar where they were having the drinks - in public and in plain sight of whoever else was in the establishment. There's only one type of interaction between two people that "has to" (decency laws and all) be done in private, and that's of the sexual kind. Which leads me to believe that this encounter was more consensual than she is letting on.
    I think you're the one who doesn't get it, after all.

    Even if a person invites another to their house alone with the intention to have sex but changes her/his mind anytime and the guest does not honor it, it's still going to be rape.

    It doesn't matter why the guest was invited to the house, whether they were alone, what his/her expectations were, or even that initially the person who invited them agreed to have sex. If someone wants another person to stop, they need to stop. No means no. And the initial yes is not a contract.

    If you initially wanted to have sex with someone, but they started to act weird and you changed your mind, do you have to go through with it? Maybe they started hurting you? Do you have to suffer through it? What if you agreed to make out and fool around without having an intercourse but they tried to make you have one anyway? Is your no less valid then? What do you think a date rape is? Can a prostitute be raped? A wife?

    All that "What was she expecting would happen?" accusatory tone is vile.

    I agree that one should take precautions to not put themselves in the harm's way, it's common sense, but nothing should undermine everyone's right to say no.

    Having said that, in this particular story, I'll withhold my judgement until there's more information. I'm not particularly buying the woman's account, but I'm far from blaming her. If she's lying, I hope she will get punished. Fake rape accusations are as damaging and despicable as the rape itself. To the person falsely accused and to the real rape victims.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by WindSpirit View Post

    Even if a person invites another to their house alone with the intention to have sex but changes her/his mind anytime and the guest does not honor it, it's still going to be rape.
    I agree with you. But in this case it was not home. She brought him to her office, because her boyfriend was home. I have to wonder what she planned to do in her office, with a man she had had several drinks with. I mean, there was no let's have coffee, let's have a drink, let's watch a TV movie, let's sit on a sofa and talk. And, as I already said: why did she wait until she got caught, to report it? Why did she continue to txt him afterward?

    Having said that, in this particular story, I'll withhold my judgement until there's more information. I'm not particularly buying the woman's account, but I'm far from blaming her. If she's lying, I hope she will get punished. Fake rape accusations are as damaging and despicable as the rape itself. To the person falsely accused and to the real rape victims.
    Completely agree. Especially the bolded.

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