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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    You have no idea what his life is like now so I find it very naive to assume he will just go back to normal and never face any problems after being labeled a rapist ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL. I wasn't aware you had access to his bank account, paychecks and other information about his business ventures.
    Where did I say he was going to go back to normal?? I said he doesn't seem to have any big damages that would make a lawsuit worthwhile.

    He definitely still has his job. He wasn't skewered by the national media. He's gotten messages of support from his fans. Most people (including you) are demonizing the woman and not blaming him for anything, not even bad judgement or being a horn dog.

    But apparently you have some inside information that I am lacking since you are so sure that his life has been ruined.

    For some reason you seem to be taking this all a bit personally and you are out for blood. You want that woman to pay for what she did, goddamit even though she hasn't seem to have done much as pretty much no one believes her story or took her very seriously. You aren't looking at it logically since you can't even say what she should be sued for just that she has to be held accountable somehow via the legal system and being held accountable by karma isn't enough.

    What you don't seem to realize is that suing is a major PITA. Even in a straightforward case, there are lawyer costs and time costs and it impacts your entire life. Often times, when you are in the midst of a law suit, you feel like everything is on hold until it gets settled. And it can take forever to get to the courts. There's always the change you'll lose (even if the case seems air tight) and have big bills to pay off. And in a case like this, you are opening up your personal life to inspection and misinterpretation. So it's really risky on many levels.

    It's not worth the cost to most people to sue unless they have some real damages or some sort of major wrong that needs to be righted (like a corporation is hurting people). I just don't see what Kelly could gain from suing this woman and I'd be very surprised if he goes that route.

    In the meantime, this woman is a laughing stock. Her boyfriend will probably quietly dump her and she's notorious enough that she may have trouble getting jobs in the future. She'll definitely have trouble getting dates! So karma is going to smack her down better than any lawsuit would IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    What a horrible example. You do realize that as time goes on your memory gets WORSE. After years, any "filling in" you have done is almost surely false. Our memories, no matter how real they seem, are often WRONG.
    That was kind of my point. No, it was totally my point. That's even what I said: That's she's remade over her memories and filled in the holes in a way that makes her the victim and not just a drunken idiot. And there's no way she's going to suddenly decide she must have been mistaken. What would be the trigger for that? She certainly has no incentive to do so.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  2. #122
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    MacMadame, I agree with you that suing this woman would be a big, expensive pain in the butt. As to damages, we really have no way of knowing if Kelly has, is, will suffer damages. I don't know that simply having her name become public and having people know what she did, is enough. She is not the first person who has claimed false rape, she won't be the last. We heard about this because it involved a famous person, but what about non-famous people who are accused unfairly? Who's families are destroyed, reputations/careers/integrity are tarnished? At the very least, isn't this slander? And how would women who have been actually raped feel about this? They suffered through a horrible reality, this woman used rape as an excuse for cheating. How will this effect women who come forward with rape claims, in the future? Will they be believed? I understand that there are cases that just do not have enough weight to prosecute, I understand that we don't want a precedent that would discourage a woman from reporting, due to fear of punishment if the case cannot go forward. But in this case, it seems that there is compelling evidence that she lied. That she did nothing until her boyfriend found her texts, that the texts indicated she wanted to pursue a further relationship with Kelly, and that she got caught. To me, while I do understand your memory points, it appears that she knew exactly what she was doing.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Without damages, there is nothing to sue for.
    At least here in the United States, falsely accusing someone of a crime or of serious sexual misconduct is defamation per se and, if proved, entitles the plaintiff of an award of damages even if there are no special damages.

    In this instance, however, I would be astonished if he didn't have special damages, particularly attorney's fees incurred in dealing with the investigation.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    ...She is not the first person who has claimed false rape, she won't be the last. We heard about this because it involved a famous person, but what about non-famous people who are accused unfairly?..
    Enough already! False reports of rape are rare; far rarer than actual rapes that go unreported. Japanfan and others mentioned this earlier in this thread but you still keep harping on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    ...And how would women who have been actually raped feel about this? They suffered through a horrible reality, this woman used rape as an excuse for cheating. How will this effect women who come forward with rape claims, in the future? Will they be believed?...
    IMO, one has very little to do with the other. Many people will always criticize any woman who accuses a man of rape regardless of the circumstances. I also think that blaming false accusations of rape for real rape victims not being believed is yet another way to make women responsible for men's bad behavior. I decided a long time ago that I wouldn't play that game.[/QUOTE]

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic View Post
    Many people will always criticize any woman who accuses a man of rape regardless of the circumstances.
    I disagree. Two rape cases in my local area brought on two distinctively different ractions from the public. The first one involved a SUNY Albany freshman who went out to a frat party, got very drunk, went back to her dorm, met up with two male students (who were roommates), and went to their dorm room "to hang out and watch movies." Afterward, she claimed she was raped. It was basically the same scenario as the Kelly case minus the waiting 3 months (she was "too drunk to remember"), except she didn't meet these guys for drinks first (she was already drunk when she met up with them, but, again, she didn't know them well enough to be able to trust them alone. When the allegations came out (and were never proven), the general public's reaction was naturally against her. IIRC she ended up leaving the school because of the negative publicity brought on by the case.

    And then we had a very recent case, where a woman was walking home from the grocery store with her young child in the middle of the day, and was forced into her hallway and raped while her child watched. It turns out her attacker was just let out of jail within weeks of this happening (and probably should have been kept in jail to begin with). I didn't heard anyone questioning her story.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic View Post
    I also think that blaming false accusations of rape for real rape victims not being believed is yet another way to make women responsible for men's bad behavior.
    That, just doesn't even make sense.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Where did I say he was going to go back to normal?? I said he doesn't seem to have any big damages that would make a lawsuit worthwhile.

    He definitely still has his job. He wasn't skewered by the national media. He's gotten messages of support from his fans. Most people (including you) are demonizing the woman and not blaming him for anything, not even bad judgement or being a horn dog.

    But apparently you have some inside information that I am lacking since you are so sure that his life has been ruined.

    For some reason you seem to be taking this all a bit personally and you are out for blood. You want that woman to pay for what she did, goddamit even though she hasn't seem to have done much as pretty much no one believes her story or took her very seriously. You aren't looking at it logically since you can't even say what she should be sued for just that she has to be held accountable somehow via the legal system and being held accountable by karma isn't enough.

    What you don't seem to realize is that suing is a major PITA. Even in a straightforward case, there are lawyer costs and time costs and it impacts your entire life. Often times, when you are in the midst of a law suit, you feel like everything is on hold until it gets settled. And it can take forever to get to the courts. There's always the change you'll lose (even if the case seems air tight) and have big bills to pay off. And in a case like this, you are opening up your personal life to inspection and misinterpretation. So it's really risky on many levels.

    It's not worth the cost to most people to sue unless they have some real damages or some sort of major wrong that needs to be righted (like a corporation is hurting people). I just don't see what Kelly could gain from suing this woman and I'd be very surprised if he goes that route.

    In the meantime, this woman is a laughing stock. Her boyfriend will probably quietly dump her and she's notorious enough that she may have trouble getting jobs in the future. She'll definitely have trouble getting dates! So karma is going to smack her down better than any lawsuit would IMO.



    That was kind of my point. No, it was totally my point. That's even what I said: That's she's remade over her memories and filled in the holes in a way that makes her the victim and not just a drunken idiot. And there's no way she's going to suddenly decide she must have been mistaken. What would be the trigger for that? She certainly has no incentive to do so.
    Where do I even begin with you? First of all, I said he should sue her SO SHE IS HELD RESPONSIBLE IN A COURT OF LAW! Otherwise, she gets away with what she has done. I even made SPECIFIC MENTION of not suing for the purpose of money. How much more plain can I say it?

    Secondly, I am not taking anything personally. Just as you assume to know all about the people's lives in this story you seem to also know my deepest feelings. How do you do that?

    If I missed your point about memories then I do apologize. I really took what you said as though you were saying that maybe her memories came to her long after the fact. I thought you were saying her memories became more and more clear with time. I was just pointing out how very rare that is. If you said that as well then I just misunderstood what you said, that is all. At least we agree on something.

    And you are right, I am not blaming him for bad judgement or for being a horn dog. I wasn't aware that being a horn dog was a crime. I hope you've never been horny in your life, you horrible horrible person. As for bad judgement, maybe he did make bad judgement but I am NOT AT ALL convinced she was as drunk as she says. I think that was all part of her story. If she wasn't drunk then did he make bad judgement? I guess you can say that sleeping with a stranger is stupid but I would never judge a person for that and it doesn't mean what happened to him is OK. I feel you like you are coming awful close to rationalizing what happened to him by pointing out all his flaws. That doesn't work for me.

    And finally, no, IMO karma is NOT good enough punishment. I am not leaving it up to karma to punish child murderers and RAPISTS. If he decided to leave it up to karma then that is his business. I wouldn't and I am just sharing my opinions here.
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    MacMadame, I agree with you that suing this woman would be a big, expensive pain in the butt. As to damages, we really have no way of knowing if Kelly has, is, will suffer damages. I don't know that simply having her name become public and having people know what she did, is enough. She is not the first person who has claimed false rape, she won't be the last. We heard about this because it involved a famous person, but what about non-famous people who are accused unfairly? Who's families are destroyed, reputations/careers/integrity are tarnished? At the very least, isn't this slander? And how would women who have been actually raped feel about this? They suffered through a horrible reality, this woman used rape as an excuse for cheating. How will this effect women who come forward with rape claims, in the future? Will they be believed? I understand that there are cases that just do not have enough weight to prosecute, I understand that we don't want a precedent that would discourage a woman from reporting, due to fear of punishment if the case cannot go forward. But in this case, it seems that there is compelling evidence that she lied. That she did nothing until her boyfriend found her texts, that the texts indicated she wanted to pursue a further relationship with Kelly, and that she got caught. To me, while I do understand your memory points, it appears that she knew exactly what she was doing.
    None of these things matter in a civil lawsuit. He can't recover for anything other than his damages; that a well publicized false accusation may make it harder for women who have really been raped, or that there may be men in jail following false accusations doesn't matter.

    The real issue is the burden of proof: in a criminal case, it is the prosecution who has the burden of proving that there was a rape; in a defamation case, it would be Kelley who has the burden of proving that there wasn't a rape (ie. that the accusation was false), as well as something indicating that she should have known this (there has to be fault ... at least negligence). That the alleged victim isn't credible is a good reason to drop a criminal case ... the prosecution couldn't meet their burden. However, that a witness's testimony isn't credible is not enough to affirmatively prove the falsity of the testimony (i.e., that the alleged victim is a liar does not establish that there was no rape).

  9. #129
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    [QUOTE=BigB08822;3483984]First of all, I said he should sue her SO SHE IS HELD RESPONSIBLE IN A COURT OF LAW! Otherwise, she gets away with what she has done. I even made SPECIFIC MENTION of not suing for the purpose of money. How much more plain can I say it?[/quote[
    And how much more plainly can I say that in civil court you sue for DAMAGES. That's how it works. If he doesn't sue for money, what does he sue for? That just isn't how it works in the US. Civil court is not criminal court.

    What you want done to this woman has to be done via criminal court and they have already decided what she did doesn't fit the definition of a crime they can prosecute her for.

    Secondly, I am not taking anything personally. Just as you assume to know all about the people's lives in this story you seem to also know my deepest feelings. How do you do that?
    I judge you by your words. By saying things like "Where do I even begin with you?" and "I hope you've never been horny in your life, you horrible horrible person. " then I think you are posting more with emotion than logic and making everything personal.

    There is no reason to that.

    If I missed your point about memories then I do apologize. I really took what you said as though you were saying that maybe her memories came to her long after the fact. I thought you were saying her memories became more and more clear with time.
    Even though I used recovered memories as an example of how people get a hold of a false memory and strongly believe it's real even though it isn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    And finally, no, IMO karma is NOT good enough punishment. I am not leaving it up to karma to punish child murderers and RAPISTS. If he decided to leave it up to karma then that is his business. I wouldn't and I am just sharing my opinions here.
    Child murders and rapists can be tried in the criminal system. The criminal system has declined to punish this women saying she hasn't committed a crime.

    Do you really think what this women has done is equal to MURDER and RAPE? If so, that's further proof to me that you are posting through anger and are personally affronted by what she'd done because her "crimes" are no where near those crimes and therefore shouldn't get the same sort of punishment.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    That, just doesn't even make sense.
    It makes perfect sense.

    People make false accusations all the time. They claim to have been robbed or beat up or ripped off when they weren't. But there isn't a public outcry that these people are making it harder for REAL victims of those said crimes to be taken seriously. People are able to make distinctions when it comes to other crimes but rape is one where it's all on the woman. It's on the woman to protect herself and not every do anything dumb and to be a very clear victim with no shades of gray. That's not right.

    The onus should be on society to take women's reports of being raped seriously just like they take any other criminal report and to realize that the odd exception is just that, an exception.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  11. #131

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    It's called civil court, MacMadame. I have stated that from the beginning.

    Don't you think this woman's accusation was taken seriously? The accused was taken off the air at work and an investigation was started. What else would you have had done? I suppose you, and a few others in here, would prefer Kelly be locked up during all of this even though it turns out he did nothing wrong. I feel like this woman is still being looked at as a victim because the word rape was used. As a man, that is very threatening to me even if I am gay and I wont be finding myself in bed with a woman any time soon. It could happen to anyone, clearly.
    -Brian
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    It makes perfect sense.

    People make false accusations all the time. They claim to have been robbed or beat up or ripped off when they weren't. But there isn't a public outcry that these people are making it harder for REAL victims of those said crimes to be taken seriously. People are able to make distinctions when it comes to other crimes but rape is one where it's all on the woman. It's on the woman to protect herself and not every do anything dumb and to be a very clear victim with no shades of gray. That's not right.
    I disagree with you here. I think that people who go into dangerous areas and get robbed, beat up, etc. (male or female) are being dumb. Do they deserve to be robbed or beat up? Absolutely not. But are they being safe? Are they protecting themselves? No, they are not. I make no distinction here. NO one deserves to be raped, robbed, beat up, shot. But, we can be careful and not put ourselves in places or situations where that is more likely to happen.

    The onus should be on society to take women's reports of being raped seriously just like they take any other criminal report and to realize that the odd exception is just that, an exception.
    My point was/is, that women who are raped are not taken as seriously as they should be now. A highly publicized situation, like this, certainly doesn't help. All it does is give credibility to the morons who think women ask for it or provoke it. There is a huge difference in provoking an attack (AKA blame the victim)
    and keeping yourself safe.

    As to being drunk. Men and women drink and make poor decisions every day. It may be to get behind the wheel of a car, it may be to have unprotected sex, it may be a whole slew of things. Why is a man responsible for behaving rationally when drinking, but a woman is not? Obviously, if the woman is clearly incapacitated, that is different. But, people can have one or two drinks and do things they would not do sober.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    It's called civil court, MacMadame. I have stated that from the beginning.

    Don't you think this woman's accusation was taken seriously? The accused was taken off the air at work and an investigation was started. What else would you have had done? I suppose you, and a few others in here, would prefer Kelly be locked up during all of this even though it turns out he did nothing wrong. I feel like this woman is still being looked at as a victim because the word rape was used. As a man, that is very threatening to me even if I am gay and I wont be finding myself in bed with a woman any time soon. It could happen to anyone, clearly.
    If both parties in this case were male would you still feel so threatened? Humans being what they are, I would be very surprised if date rape never happens amongst gay males.

  14. #134

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    That is why I added in the last sentence about how it could happen to anyone. Now that I read it back it kind of reads like I was talking about how this happened randomly to Kelly but what I meant was anyone can be raped. It wasn't very clear, sorry.
    -Brian
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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    It's called civil court, MacMadame. I have stated that from the beginning.
    Well you know the name, but you don't seem to understand what it does and how it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    I suppose you, and a few others in here, would prefer Kelly be locked up during all of this even though it turns out he did nothing wrong.
    There is nothing in what I or anyone else posted that would imply that in any way. There were no calls on this thread for him to be arrested before the investigation was finished either. If people preferred that, they would have said so. We're not shy here at FSU!

    Personally, I think the situation was handled appropriately. I have no problems with how it ended up or that the accusation was investigated. All accusations have to be investigated. You can't just *assume* the other person's accusation is unfounded. You have to do at least some investigation however preliminary.

    The level of investigation seems about right too. They didn't spend weeks interviewing everyone remotely involved including all the people who saw them drinking or walking down the street or who had ever worked with them. They talked to the parties involved, found there was no evidence of rape and announced there would be no charges in a pretty timely manner.

    I don't think the police (and prosecutor's office) could have handled it better, in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    I feel like this woman is still being looked at as a victim because the word rape was used.
    And I feel like that's ridiculous. Show me something on this thread that is talking about her in particular (and not people in general) as a victim. There's been a lot of anger and contempt thrown at her, in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    As a man, that is very threatening to me even if I am gay and I wont be finding myself in bed with a woman any time soon. It could happen to anyone, clearly.
    I told you I thought you were taking this personally and there you go... you just said so.

    Since "it" seems to be that the police interviewed him and he took a leave from his job (which was probably a paid leave), I'm not exactly sure what you are worried about. Not to mention, anyone can accuse you of *anything* at any time. And, if you are alone with them, it's your word against theirs. They could accuse you of robbing them, of assaulting them, being a pedophile (I saw the way he looked at that little girl/boy!), etc.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    I told you I thought you were taking this personally and there you go... you just said so.
    No.
    -Brian
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    MacMadame's most excellent post.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    No.
    "How you treat the weak is
    Your true nature calling" -- Jane's Addiction

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andora View Post
    MacMadame's most excellent post.



    Yes, excellent post.
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

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