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  1. #81

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    Chan is pretty much going to get a +1 on all his elements because whilst there might be some small problems, there are many positive aspects. However also every element matches the musical structure which is one of the things to achieve a positive bullet point.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  2. #82
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    You certainly know more than I do about judging Aussie Willy. In regard to "every element matching the musical structure...," if Chan gets +1 for that, then Dai and Jeremy should get +10, even tho' it seems +3 is the highest available?

    I bow to your judgement re scoring under the IJS, Aussie Willy, but I still respond to what moves me re skaters' performances, regardless of judges' scoring.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    You certainly know more than I do about judging Aussie Willy. In regard to "every element matching the musical structure...," if Chan gets +1 for that, then Dai and Jeremy should get +10, even tho' it seems +3 is the highest available?

    I bow to your judgement re scoring under the IJS, Aussie Willy, but I still respond to what moves me re skaters' performances, regardless of judges' scoring.
    And that kind of sums it up in a nutshell for many -- responding to what moves you/me regarding a skater's performance. What moves one person to tears of joy may bring boredom or indifference to another. You may not feel much when Chan skates but Jeremy often leaves me feeling very little when he's done except to say bravo or too bad. Chan often leaves me feeling like the time just flew by and wishing there was more. Now Dai, on the other hand, often leaves me going WOW and WOW again.

    Basically it's different strokes for different folks.
    Crazy about sports!

  4. #84
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    I find dai to be the only "WOW" skater out there now.

    As wonderful as pat's skating was at worlds last year, ivenever been so bored by an lp in my life. A shame because I really enjoyed him when he first rose to seniors. Ill have to download recents nats to see if the magic comes back for me.

    One thing the jer has for me that pat doesn't, is that I've really loved some of jer's programs in the past few years. Someone ofchan's talent IMHO shouldn't have such dull programs.

  5. #85
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    When the discussion is about the technical merit of a given performance, we're talking about Figure Skating Universe (what the judges try to translate to numbers).

    When the discussion about the technical merit of a given performance goes to What-Moves-Me and What-Not, it turns into Poster X Skating Universe, and both Universes happen to be ruled by a totally different set of rules.

    So applying the rules of one of those Universes to the other usually brings the discussion about the technical merit of a given performance to a painfully pointless end.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    I haven't yet been wowed by Chan's presentation skills. I don't feel Chan's emotion from the inside out, like I do when I watch Dai and Jeremy skate. I think Chan is still trying to find himself in terms of artistic expression.
    Interesting. I totally agree about feeling the outward emotion from Daisuke more than from Patrick, but I actually would put Jeremy below Patrick on this. Daisuke commands my attention from his first look or head movement and draws me in that way (facial expression and emotion). Patrick commands my attention from his first edges and steps and body movements (full-body expression more than facial expression, but I do feel some emotion there). Jeremy really doesn't "command" my attention at all - I do like his skating, but I find that he just doesn't draw me in the way that both Dai and Patrick do (in their very different ways)...

    Jeremy's skating just seems very introverted to me or something - it's all very good technically and the choreo is there, but I just don't feel like it projects into the audience (at least not to me). I was at the GPF in Quebec and while watching the practices and the competition warmups, I actually kept forgetting that Jeremy was there. Dai would skate by and command my attention, then Patrick would skate by and command my attention, then Javier would skate by and command my attention, and I just wouldn't notice Jeremy at all because he never grabbed my attention... (I felt bad about it because I really do like Jeremy, but I just found it hard to focus on him when everybody else was commanding my attention so much more.)

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    You certainly know more than I do about judging Aussie Willy. In regard to "every element matching the musical structure...," if Chan gets +1 for that, then Dai and Jeremy should get +10, even tho' it seems +3 is the highest available?

    I bow to your judgement re scoring under the IJS, Aussie Willy, but I still respond to what moves me re skaters' performances, regardless of judges' scoring.
    I think you are looking at the whole program. As long as the skater does the element to a nuance in the music, they can at least be consider to have achieved a positive bullet point.

    For example these are the positive bullet points for a jump.

    1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
    2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
    3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
    4) good height and distance
    5) good extension on landing / creative exit
    6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
    7) effortless throughout
    8) element matched to the musical structure

    Chan could easily earn just on that lutz he did in the middle of the rink a +2 (or a judge could go +3) because of points 1, 2, 5, 7 and 8. If you watch that element it also had to work with the music because the next section of choreography had to be with the music.

    Also he has positives going for him because so many of the jumps are done with little telegraphing or out of transitions. So you could give positives on points 1 and 2 alone.

    Matching your elements with the music is what helps create the picture of the program, gives the program structure and then musically it all ends up making sense to the viewer.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  8. #88

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    I don't propose to be any kind of expert on single skaters, but after seeing Dai and Patrick back to back at Skate Canada (not Patrick's best skating by any means), his speed, range of bodily motion, edges, and ice coverage were noticably superior to Dai's. I wasn't particularly looking for this. It was just very evident. Patrick also had a better line probably because of his longer legs and extension.
    Addicted to FSU

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    His competitors at World are probably hoping right now that Patrick peaked at Nationals
    His competitors are probably hoping that a day will come when the judges will stop inflating his scores.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Observer View Post
    His competitors are probably hoping that a day will come when the judges will stop inflating his scores.
    You mean like they are inflating Plushenko at Euros thus far?

    You can't argue Chan's TES too much as his base tends to be quite high compared to his competitors. Yeah, maybe you think he doesn't deserve the +2 or +3 on some of his elements but if Plush can get + on some of his wonky jumps, Chan should easily be getting them as well.

    Chan has raised the bar, now it's up to others to step up and show they can keep up. Like I hear from some "go big or go home" or as some would put it "put up or shut up". Both work for me.
    Crazy about sports!

  11. #91
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    In my opinion, Chan is one of the best complete skaters and nearly unbeatable when he's clean.

    I think it's a little pointless to argue about inflation at Nationals; it has no bearing on the rest of the international competitions (except maybe instill confidence in a country's athletes), and pretty much all countries do it. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, though.

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