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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Very good skating, ridiculous judging.

    I don't understand why Skate Canada insists on making their Nationals results a laughing stock.
    snip ...
    What part of the judging did you find ridiculous? Just curious.

    As to SC making their results a laughing stock, would you be a bit more specific please.

    If referring to the marks that Chan got, well he deserved them. Go and take a look at WHAT he did and then HOW WELL he did it and then convince me (and others) his TES marks aren't warranted. HIs PCS marks were in line with what he did.

    If you are referring to other skaters/results, I'd be interested in knowing.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Every skater can work out what fits best but there is certainly no express number of maximum triple jumps anywhere in the rules.
    there are only 6 different types of jumps currently recognized by the isu when scoring triples: x,z,f,r,s & t. 6 different triples + 2 allowed repeats (As per the zayak rule) = 8 triples max. These two factors make " 8 triples max" an "unwritten rule" IMO. But I wait with baited breath for your explaination on how a skater gets credit for a 9, 10 or 11 triple lp.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave of the North View Post
    They could temper the huge scores/margins of victory/unsurmountable leads after the short by going back to factored placements.
    I like that Men's competitions will be boring if Patrick will always be the runaway winner.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave of the North View Post
    They could temper the huge scores/margins of victory/unsurmountable leads after the short by going back to factored placements.
    They're always flip flopping on this. Until the 80s everyone complained about the insurmountable leads. Then with factoring, everyone complained about losing the whole comp with a mistake in the sp. can't please all of the people all of the time.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    there are only 6 different types of jumps currently recognized by the isu when scoring triples: x,z,f,r,s & t. 6 different triples + 2 allowed repeats (As per the zayak rule) = 8 triples max. These two factors make " 8 triples max" an "unwritten rule" IMO. But I wait with baited breath for your explaination on how a skater gets credit for a 9, 10 or 11 triple lp.
    Yes, it is true that 8 is the maximum number of triples.

    The confusion seems to be that some people (not you in particular, I am just speaking generally) are saying that 3T and 4T are counted as the same jump in terms of the Zayak rule, and that is not correct. A skater can repeat two jumps (quads or triples) and triples and quads of the same type (e.g. toe loop) are considered *different* jumps for this purpose.

    So, a skater who really likes toe loops could choose to do two 4T and two 3T as their repeated jumps (and then they couldn't repeat any other quads or triples). In Patrick's case, he has chosen the 4T and the 3Lz as his two repeated jumps. That means he can't repeat anything else, including 3T, which is why he can't do both a 4T-3T AND a 3F-3T - it always has to be one or the other. (If he hits the 4T-3T at the beginning, then he has to do a 3F-2T later or he will violate the Zayak rule.)

    With 8 jump slots, 2 two-jump combos, and 1 three-jump combo, the total possible number of jumps is 12. Theoretically, that could be 8 triples (with two triples being repeated) and 4 different quads. It sounds crazy, but Reynolds' attempted content at Canadians was 8 triples, 3 quads, and 1 double (with 3T and 3Lo as his two repeated jumps). He just needs to replace the 2A with a 4F, and he will have 8 triples and 4 quads. (Go Kevin! )
    Last edited by sk8girl; 01-24-2012 at 08:28 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    no, they can only do 8 max, and quads count as triples, so if chan does two 4t he can only do 6 triples and none of then can be a 3t.
    No, quads don't count as triples. Skaters can theoretically do 8 triples (including two repeated ones) plus 4 different quads. (See my detailed post above.)

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    What part of the judging did you find ridiculous? Just curious.

    As to SC making their results a laughing stock, would you be a bit more specific please.

    If referring to the marks that Chan got, well he deserved them. Go and take a look at WHAT he did and then HOW WELL he did it and then convince me (and others) his TES marks aren't warranted. HIs PCS marks were in line with what he did.

    If you are referring to other skaters/results, I'd be interested in knowing.
    You really think that Chan deserved +2s and +3s for pretty much every single element and no PCS mark lower than 9.25 in the SP and 9.50 in the FS?

    And then there's the top 3 dance couples showered with +2s and +3s and Virtue/Moir with 10s...

    In an alternate reality, maybe.

    I am not going to convince you, because I don't feel like spending a couple of hours to do a detailed analysis just for that purpose.

    (Although once Euros are over and I have a bit more time, I might take you up on that )

    You can choose to believe what you want to believe.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 01-24-2012 at 10:50 PM.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    You really think that Chan deserved +2s and +3s for pretty much every single element and no PCS mark lower than 9.25 in the SP and 9.50 in the FS?


    You can choose to believe what you want to believe.

    He is a remarkable skater, and I'm a hard sell. You can believe what you see, or not. If he's not to your taste, that's ok.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8girl View Post
    No, quads don't count as triples. Skaters can theoretically do 8 triples (including two repeated ones) plus 4 different quads. (See my detailed post above.)
    Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by pat c View Post
    He is a remarkable skater, and I'm a hard sell. You can believe what you see, or not. If he's not to your taste, that's ok.
    I don't watch Canadian Nats, however I do read here and people have been posting complaints about inflated marks at cn since long before chan ever skated his first sr nats. Right or wrong, it seems to be a common view.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by pat c View Post
    He is a remarkable skater, and I'm a hard sell. You can believe what you see, or not. If he's not to your taste, that's ok.
    I can't believe you've just directed that comment to me, given I've been defending Chan's marks for a long time now and wrote loads of posts trying to explain to people his superior qualities both on FSU and elsewhere (including in this thread).

    He is to my taste.

    But taste has got nothing to do with it.

    Rules are rules.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 01-25-2012 at 02:37 AM.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I can't believe you've just directed that comment to me, given I've been defending Chan's marks for a long time now and wrote loads of posts trying to explain to people his superior qualities both on FSU and elsewhere (including in this thread).

    He is to my taste.

    But taste has got nothing to do with it.

    Rules are rules.
    That's because I don't read every post and you were just the last one I read.

    I think it's the best back to back skates he's done. We're quickly getting to the perfect 10 mark, much as we did the 6.0. (shrug) Did he deserve it? Well only history will tell.

  12. #72
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    Briefly speaking, I can't think of a single element in the long program that was worthy of +3 (maybe the 2A), but eight of the 13 elements received at least one. The sheer number of tens given to him as well.

    As for dance - well, G/P's GOES were ridiculous as well. I don't think V/M's were (or more accurately, Canadian Nationals isn't doing anything the international judges aren't doing there w/ generous GOEs/PCS)

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    You really think that Chan deserved +2s and +3s for pretty much every single element and no PCS mark lower than 9.25 in the SP and 9.50 in the FS?

    And then there's the top 3 dance couples showered with +2s and +3s and Virtue/Moir with 10s...

    In an alternate reality, maybe.

    I am not going to convince you, because I don't feel like spending a couple of hours to do a detailed analysis just for that purpose.

    (Although once Euros are over and I have a bit more time, I might take you up on that )

    You can choose to believe what you want to believe.
    I'll look forward to seeing your analysis.
    I'll also look forward to seeing an analysis from you, if you would, on Plushenko's marks from Euro's and why he did or didn't deserve what he got, especially in PCS. From the nationals at the U.S. let's look at Abbott. Throw in national inflation for Chan and Abbott and possible reputation scoring for Plushenko and wheeeeeee. Numbers heaven!
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    You know every year I read comments about the ridiculous overscoring at Canadians, Canflation, the worst rep for overscoring their athletes at home etc etc and yet last year Chan got the same mark for his FS at worlds, despite flipping out in his 3a, that he got at nationals for a perfect programme. I just don't get it.

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    It's called "skating while Canadian"...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlmart View Post
    You know every year I read comments about the ridiculous overscoring at Canadians, Canflation, the worst rep for overscoring their athletes at home etc etc and yet last year Chan got the same mark for his FS at worlds, despite flipping out in his 3a, that he got at nationals for a perfect programme. I just don't get it.
    He scored 197.07 at Nationals. He scored 187.96 at Worlds.

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    Oh and let's not forget that there's never over scoring at Russian nationals
    My travel and adventure blog http://alisonanddon.wordpress.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    You really think that Chan deserved +2s and +3s for pretty much every single element and no PCS mark lower than 9.25 in the SP and 9.50 in the FS?)
    yes i do- his skates were near perfection and i would challenge any other skater to skate this program as well or even at all ;0

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    ^^ I suppose that means Chan would have scored 6.0 across the board for technique and presentation under the old system.


    Quote Originally Posted by Louis View Post
    Based on what I heard from after the GPF, I expect we'll see much more tempered scores at Worlds -- for everyone.

    Similar conversations to what took place on this board were also happening among officials and power brokers within the sport. There is also the general sense that while Patrick Chan has some great qualities, so do many other skaters. Their federations are pushing this line quite hard and consistently, from what I've heard. Unless one skater is clean and the others all have errors, I expect we'll see a close men's competition at Worlds. That said, if Chan has two clean skates with three total quads, I think it will take a herculean effort to beat him. Takahashi may be the only one capable of it right now.
    Interesting comments, Louis. I am hoping all the competitors at Worlds will make it tough for the judges by skating their best, error-free. But, as you say, in the current climate of Chan-lovin' judges (new phrase, walei ), is there any doubt the outcome for gold if all the men skate well? Let's hope Takahashi, Abbott, and other talented men will be up to the challenge of making the Worlds competition free from boredom.

    Good to hear that other feds are promoting their best skaters. Clearly (at least to me, and perhaps to others in the skating world), while Chan has some exceptional ss, he's not 20 to 30 points better than the rest of the field, no matter how the international judges see it and score it -- no matter the unconditional love for Chan by Canadian fed and Canadian fans overjoyed to have a skating talent as huge as Chan's to promote and .

    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    I love how the usual army of "Chanflation!!" "Why skate!!?" "Chan has a 5 errors margin!!" are all quiet now.

    Patrick's performance at Nationals is how you shut your haters up!
    Ah, walei. I've read plenty of complimentary posts about Chan's Canadian Nats showing in here from posters who have had plenty of critical things to say in the past, not necessarily about Chan's skating, but about the over-scoring Chan has received for flawed performances. I suppose some Chan fans will never be happy until Chan is awarded Master of the Skating Universe, or maybe he has been already, based on some of the praise here by so-called "haters" and Chan-gang "ubers" alike.

    Congrats to Chan on great skates at Canadian Nats. He seemed to be fit, well-prepared and counting off those elements. Great for him as he seemed real happy to finally put together two clean skates this season. I thought his performances at last years Canadian Nats and Worlds were somewhat better. I haven't yet been wowed by Chan's presentation skills. I don't feel Chan's emotion from the inside out, like I do when I watch Dai and Jeremy skate. I think Chan is still trying to find himself in terms of artistic expression. He's a wonderful skater, but there's always room for improvement. The mantle of greatness is still a bit premature. Call me "hater" if you fancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    I like that Men's competitions will be boring if Patrick will always be the runaway winner.
    It must give you a good feeling inside then. Your scenario actually makes me look back and feel glad that comps were never really always "in the bag" for MK. Knowing that there was always a chance that Kwan could be beaten, made it all the more thrilling when she pulled out difficult wins (e.g., 2000 and 2001 Worlds).

    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    They're always flip flopping on this. Until the 80s everyone complained about the insurmountable leads. Then with factoring, everyone complained about losing the whole comp with a mistake in the sp. can't please all of the people all of the time.
    Probably true. I do tend to think that maybe if the ISU had taken more time to study, think through, and acquire input from a wider variety of sources, prior to forcing in the IJS system, they might have been able to create a better system that incorporated their 6.0 brand (instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water).

    I also think that Chan may be living proof that the ISU erred greatly by completely doing away with figures (they could have kept them to an extent for testing and training in lieu of competition and/ or kept them for a separate competition division). The real deal to me is that Chan didn't acquire great blade work and ss by accident, nor purely by gift from the skating Gods. No, I think it had much more to do with hard work, i.e., his coach making him diligently practice figures -- the basic fundamentals of skating.

  20. #80
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    LOL I wouldn't say that I'm one of those who will never be happy until Chan is awarded the Master of Skating Universe because that title will always belong to the Kween

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