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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmcC102 View Post
    Personally, I have always STRONGLY disliked Gusmeroli's 2000 LP. Waiting until the end of the program to do all the spins is very lazy choreography, IMO. It's takes a skilled team (coach, skater, and of course, choreographer) to know where to place spins, especially since they take so much energy. Spins can be used to enhance a piece of music, and should be placed to follow the melodic phrasing, again, IMO.
    That ending sequence of spins was my favorite part of the program. How many other skaters could do those positions and changes of directions? It was very unusual and fit the music beautifully. It's free skating like this that I miss the most. Based on her previous programs, I think it's clear that Vanessa was a skater who was unafraid to take artistic risks, and I'd wager that she placed those spins at the end not because it made the program easier, but because she wanted to create an artistic moment at the end. IMO, she definitely succeeded.

    It's a real shame that today's skaters could not add a sequence of spins like this in their programs because they are boxed in by the FP requirements.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    That ending sequence of spins was my favorite part of the program. How many other skaters could do those positions and changes of directions? It was very unusual and fit the music beautifully. It's free skating like this that I miss the most. Based on her previous programs, I think it's clear that Vanessa was a skater who was unafraid to take artistic risks, and I'd wager that she placed those spins at the end not because it made the program easier, but because she wanted to create an artistic moment at the end. IMO, she definitely succeeded.

    It's a real shame that today's skaters could not add a sequence of spins like this in their programs because they are boxed in by the FP requirements.
    Lucinda Ruh... Another underrated program was Vanessa's Joan of Arc program.. Too bad she never skated in clean.. AWESOME program potential... Vanessa was one judge away from beating Butryskaya in the free skate at the 2000 Worlds, so the judges were willing to give her the scores if she was clean or close to it..

  3. #23
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    Maria skated a poor long program at the 2000 Worlds so losing to that in the long program phase while skating your own best is hardly a ringing endorsement from the judges. Vanessa was really underscored for her long program at both the 2000 Europeans and 2000 Worlds.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Maria skated a poor long program at the 2000 Worlds so losing to that in the long program phase while skating your own best is hardly a ringing endorsement from the judges. Vanessa was really underscored for her long program at both the 2000 Europeans and 2000 Worlds.
    Perhaps, but Maria was also a reigning world champion whom had been getting the benefit of the doubt all season and she skated a kick ass short program. SO to be within 1 judge for Vanessa whom aside from 1 great FS at Europeans that year, didnt really have that much happening is prety good. We have to think about it in that context; not the perfect world judged on your performance that day perspective..

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    That ending sequence of spins was my favorite part of the program. How many other skaters could do those positions and changes of directions? It was very unusual and fit the music beautifully. It's free skating like this that I miss the most. Based on her previous programs, I think it's clear that Vanessa was a skater who was unafraid to take artistic risks, and I'd wager that she placed those spins at the end not because it made the program easier, but because she wanted to create an artistic moment at the end. IMO, she definitely succeeded.

    It's a real shame that today's skaters could not add a sequence of spins like this in their programs because they are boxed in by the FP requirements.
    You are probably right; Gusmeroli was a "gutsy" skater and probably wanted to make a statement and take a risk with the spin placements.

    Truthfully, before posting here, I hadn't watched the performance since probably 2001 or so. Although that dress is , it is a nice performance. I still find the spins to be a bit too sloppy for me to be , but it is definitely a soft, artistic moment.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    The Lark Ascending, Yuna Kim LP 2006 season senior debut.
    I, too, loved this program. Very mature for such a young skater! Her presence was well beyond her years.

    But, and I'm probably in the minority here, I always found the cuts of Yuna's music not-so-thoughtful and a little lacking in cohesiveness. This was especially true for her Gershwin LP, Shez LP, Bond SP, and Die Fled SP. I thought Kim still had a ways to go in her development as an artist.

    Also, add me to the chorus of posters who are over Gusmeroli's Legends of the Fall LP.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by eurodance2001 View Post
    Perhaps, but Maria was also a reigning world champion whom had been getting the benefit of the doubt all season and she skated a kick ass short program. SO to be within 1 judge for Vanessa whom aside from 1 great FS at Europeans that year, didnt really have that much happening is prety good. We have to think about it in that context; not the perfect world judged on your performance that day perspective..
    At Worlds, Maria landed 5 triples, and botched both 3sals. Gusmeroli landed 5 clean triples and one 2footed 3lutz combo.

    I don't think Gusmeroli was at all undermarked going 4/5 over a reigning world champion who was leading after the short.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    At Worlds, Maria landed 5 triples, and botched both 3sals. Gusmeroli landed 5 clean triples and one 2footed 3lutz combo.

    I don't think Gusmeroli was at all undermarked going 4/5 over a reigning world champion who was leading after the short.
    I didn't think Maria's performance was "poor" either. I actually would have placed Maria and Vanessa over Slutskaya in the LP, whose Carmen was a choreographic mess IMO. Especially with moments like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCBhOcfH_S8#t=3m54s where she does her combination spin right through a dramatic music change.

    For me: 1)Kwan 2)Gusmeroli 3)Butyrskaya 4)Slutskaya

    Oh, and I don't think Vanessa two-footed the opening lutz. Her free foot was a little low, but she managed to keep it up.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I didn't think Maria's performance was "poor" either. I actually would have placed Maria and Vanessa over Slutskaya in the LP, whose Carmen was a choreographic mess IMO. Especially with moments like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCBhOcfH_S8#t=3m54s where she does her combination spin right through a dramatic music change.

    For me: 1)Kwan 2)Gusmeroli 3)Butyrskaya 4)Slutskaya

    Oh, and I don't think Vanessa two-footed the opening lutz. Her free foot was a little low, but she managed to keep it up.
    I'm a fan, I loved her, but her opening Lutz was 2-footed, you see clearly the broken ice under her left toe.
    I've never noticed that change of music on Slutskaya's spin, but you're so right ! Now, I can't watch it anymore ! lol

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I am confused by the title of this thread....."thoughtful program......."

    I am not sure what the OP means by thoughtful. The examples are all over the place. I agree about an original music choice as being "thoughtful" but having good choreography (Gusmeroli) or flow & Ina Bauer (Shizuka) or Angela's beautiful Sleeping beauty performance - aren't they just good performances? What makes them "thoughtful"? I am not sure I understand the line of thinking here. Please educate me.
    I see it as unique care taken with the placement of elements and transitions, the use of subtle beats, when even stroking seems to constitute some kind of interpretation. i.e Nikodinovs build up to the lutz and flip are echoed by a build in the music. Thus a thoughful program has additional traits that only become apparent when you watch it over and over.

  11. #31
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    I also love Yuna's Lark Ascending. And Mao's Fantasy Impromptu from the 2007 GPF when she battled out of 6th place in the SP to land a 3a and two 3-3s in her FS, win that segment, and pull up to 2nd overall. Really saw her fight in that performance. Also Joannie's Samson and Delilah at the 2010 Olympics, obviously. Maybe even Lepisto's FS from the 2010 Olympics too.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Yes, but she skated so badly after her bronze medal in 1997. I have the feeling that judges told her in 2000 : "we gave you this in 1997 and you didn't do something right with it, so now, you'll have to prove that you deserve it. We'll see next year if you are consistent". JMHO.
    "we gave you this in 1997 and you didn't do something right with it, so now, you'll have to prove that you deserve it. We'll see next year if you are consistent".

    This doesn't sound like a judge's thinking. They didn't "give" her 97, she earned it. Vanessa did not skate badly after 97. She was inconsistant on the jumps-so was Sasha Cohen, but the rest of her skating was elite class. As we have seen, the judges were always willing to give the marks for a clean or almost clean program. (Remember all those comps where Sasha came in 4th? The judges never wrote her off...inconsistancy probably does affect their expectations, but I never felt like the judges were saying something to either her or Gusmaroli.)

    It's not like the other people she was competing against were setting any records on consistancy. During that era both Irina & Maria usually had at least 1 stumble or fall in their LPs.

  13. #33
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    Vanessa was always plagued with consistent inconsitentcy.. pretty much never skating clean. And although the ice is slippery for all, I don't agree that Vanessa was on par with Kwan and Irina all skating perfectly. Her only world podium had a more lot to do with their mistakes than her lack there of. The ordinals in Lausanne were crazy, and considering how many had Irina in 1st, I don't think Vanessa's finish above her is solidly unquestionable.

  14. #34
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    Also don't laugh because it's Miki Ando. But her 2007 Worlds FS and 2011 4CC FS I found very compelling, especially for someone who is usually so reserved in her skating.

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post

    - 2001 LP 'Sleeping Beauty' by Angela Nikodinov
    I think this is the epitome of flow. IMHO it's a better program and better skated program than anything her more famous compatriot ever produced.
    [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIy94L5Y0iw&feature=results_main&playnext= 1&list=PL77BA518A250287C5"]
    You are right, it is a better program and it is better skated than anything Sarah Hughes ever produced.
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    You are right, it is a better program and it is better skated than anything Sarah Hughes ever produced.
    So true! I still don't understand how she didnt win silver.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Also don't laugh because it's Miki Ando. But her 2007 Worlds FS and 2011 4CC FS I found very compelling, especially for someone who is usually so reserved in her skating.
    I think Miki has skated to some lovely programes.
    I really like her 2006 Olympic short programe. Pity about the error but it's a stand out programe for me.

  18. #38
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    I have to say thank you for posting Vanessa's 2000 LP--I really love that program. I love the music, I love the choreography, and I don't care if she front loaded her program. That was my favorite LP at worlds that year.
    Oh god look at me bringing the Kween into discussion only 2 pages into this thread (whoops!), but IMO her 2001 worlds LP was the best program she ever did. The music was well-cut, and it was incredibly well-choreographed. That should've been the elegant mature direction to take after that, but instead she dumped Lori Nichol and did Scherherezade, a program I really didn't care for.
    As badass as her 2000 worlds LP performance was, I never liked that LP that much due to the music cuts being so disjointed. I think her 1999 worlds exhibition was the best version of that program.
    Anyways, since there are other skaters that did great programs, here's my favorite LP from the 2002 olympics:
    Fumie Suguri 2002 Olympics LP

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    Vanessa was always plagued with consistent inconsitentcy.. pretty much never skating clean. And although the ice is slippery for all, I don't agree that Vanessa was on par with Kwan and Irina all skating perfectly. Her only world podium had a more lot to do with their mistakes than her lack there of. The ordinals in Lausanne were crazy, and considering how many had Irina in 1st, I don't think Vanessa's finish above her is solidly unquestionable.
    Irina's long program was light years ahead of Vanessa's. Under COP Irina would have crushed Vanessa overall, being behind by maybe 5 points or so after the short due to the major fall, and beaten her by about 20 points in the long. Vanessa was just lucky Irina wasnt placed ahead of Tara in the LP as most thought she should, and that most of the programs that day were mediocre so her own so so LP could barely hang onto 4th in that phase.

    I did think Vanessa should have won the SP at those Worlds over Tara however.

    It is definitely not true Vanessa at her best was on par with Irina or Michelle IMO. I cant imagine her skating clean ever coming anywhere near those two skating clean. I did enjoy her skating on a good day though. She always tried something interesting and different, even if she was rough around the edges and inconsistent.

  20. #40
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    I watched the pairs free at Vancouver 2010 last night & the programe that really stood out for me (even with errors) was Jessica Dube & Bryce Davison's The way we were.
    Such a thoughtful & moving programe.

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