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  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_E View Post
    Pretty much every top lady either flutzes or lips. So, does it really matter anymore? She'll get -1GOE and leave it at that. Really a pet peeve of mine that everyone points out flutzers but lippers as totally fine.
    Agreed. People tend to point out flutzes and ignore lips. But at the same time, I'd rather see a flutz or a lip in an otherwise excellent 7-triple program than a 5 or 6-triple program from someone scared to do one for fear of getting an edge call.

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_E View Post
    Pretty much every top lady either flutzes or lips. So, does it really matter anymore?
    Even if we accept for the sake of argument that there are no top ladies out there who can consistently land a true lutz and a true flip, I would argue YES because:

    1. Some manage to flutz and lip.
    2. Some who do flutz or lip do so only on occasion.
    3. Some flutz or lip more markedly than others.
    4. Some top skaters (such as Kostner, at the moment) don't attempt one or the other of the two jumps for one reason or another.
    5. At some point, there most likely are going to be top ladies who cab consistently land both a true lutz and a true flip.

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Even if we accept for the sake of argument that there are no top ladies out there who can consistently land a true lutz and a true flip, I would argue YES because:

    1. Some manage to flutz and lip.
    2. Some who do flutz or lip do so only on occasion.
    3. Some flutz or lip more markedly than others.
    4. Some top skaters (such as Kostner, at the moment) don't attempt one or the other of the two jumps for one reason or another.
    5. At some point, there most likely are going to be top ladies who cab consistently land both a true lutz and a true flip.
    I'm not saying that no lady will ever have both a true lutz and flip but this season, I don't think it will really matter. Considering this has been a topic of conversation for 15+ years and we're still seeing skaters flutzing and lipping, I don't think it will ever really go away.

  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_E View Post
    I'm not saying that no lady will ever have both a true lutz and flip but this season, I don't think it will really matter. Considering this has been a topic of conversation for 15+ years and we're still seeing skaters flutzing and lipping, I don't think it will ever really go away.
    Ah, I see.

    Well, maybe it won't matter. In fact, it probably won't.

    But if Wagner or Asada pips Kostner out of a gold medal by doing a couple of flutzes in the Free Skate, there will be a lot of

  5. #705

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk9tingfan View Post
    Do you realistically see Ashley getting rid of the flutz by Worlds?
    She doesn't always flutz now, or at least doesn't always get called for it (it wasn't called in her 4CC free skate this year, or at Nationals last year, for example). I posted screen caps after Nationals last year that convinced me that her blade took off of the correct edge at that competition (albeit a very shallow one) even though her body was leaning to the inside (and what do you know, the screen cap is still available http://i52.tinypic.com/2w3aqnd.png. The original topic is here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=77543).

  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    She doesn't always flutz now, or at least doesn't always get called for it (it wasn't called in her 4CC free skate this year, or at Nationals last year, for example). I posted screen caps after Nationals last year that convinced me that her blade took off of the correct edge at that competition (albeit a very shallow one) even though her body was leaning to the inside (and what do you know, the screen cap is still available http://i52.tinypic.com/2w3aqnd.png. The original topic is here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=77543).
    Yes, I've noticed that she takes off on a very shallow outside edge as well.

    Vagabond - As for Mao or Ashley beating Carolina, a lot of people will say that her jump content shouldn't be winning a World title. I will wait to see how everyone skates, would personally like to see those 3 on the podium in any order.

  7. #707

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Anyways, were any novice girls assigned to Gardenia? Karen Chen is really something special!
    No novice girls were assigned to Gardena Spring Trophy (or Challenge Cup in The Hague) this year. Karen Chen will be too young for the JGP next season (she turned 12 this past August). USFS normally assigns skaters to the spring developmental internationals who will be JGP age-eligible the following season. That's why Leah Keiser wasn't assigned as a novice after she won the U.S. Novice title in 2010 (ditto for Nathan Chen in both 2010 and 2011).

  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    No novice girls were assigned to Gardena Spring Trophy (or Challenge Cup in The Hague) this year. Karen Chen will be too young for the JGP next season (she turned 12 this past August). USFS normally assigns skaters to the spring developmental internationals who will be JGP age-eligible the following season. That's why Leah Keiser wasn't assigned as a novice after she won the U.S. Novice title in 2010 (ditto for Nathan Chen in both 2010 and 2011).
    Oh ok. You'd think they could send someone like Edmunds to compete as a novice there though, she's only 13 but was already JGP eligible this season because her birthday is in May. Where she finished 6th in juniors this season and Gracie is likely to do the senior GP, she will probably be given JGP assignments next season, but still has yet to compete internationally (I think she was next in line for a JGP this season but then narrowly missed out on one). Also I believe the novice men's champ will be JGP age-eligible as well.

  9. #709

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    Novice Men's champ Vincent Zhou is a year younger than Nathan Chen, so he isn't eligible for the JGP next season.

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post
    Novice Men's champ Vincent Zhou is a year younger than Nathan Chen, so he isn't eligible for the JGP next season.
    Seriously! I thought he was 13. I think I confused him with Nam Nyguen from Canada. These skaters are so young these days!

  11. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_E View Post
    Vagabond - As for Mao or Ashley beating Carolina, a lot of people will say that her jump content shouldn't be winning a World title. I will wait to see how everyone skates, would personally like to see those 3 on the podium in any order.
    But why should a skater whose "jump content" is greater only because she puts a flutz or two into her program win out over one who is otherwise every bit as good but doesn't attempt a lutz at all?

    I know that's a hypothetical question, but it is a reasonable one to ask.

    (In actuality, Wagner's technical content at 4CC's, leaving aside the [f]lutz, was slightly more difficult than Kostner's was at Euros.)

  12. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    But why should a skater whose "jump content" is greater only because she puts a flutz or two into her program win out over one who is otherwise every bit as good but doesn't attempt a lutz at all?

    I know that's a hypothetical question, but it is a reasonable one to ask.

    (In actuality, Wagner's technical content at 4CC's, leaving aside the [f]lutz, was slightly more difficult than Kostner's was at Euros.)
    Well it's about the points. If they perform harder/more jumps they will score more points. I don't think PCS will be enough for Carolina to win if Mao lands all her jumps and get credit or if Ashley adds in the 2a-3t for 7 triples or even if Alissa manages to land 6 triples. The point I'm trying to make is that the top ladies are all very close in ability, there is no standout competitor like Yuna or Michelle.

  13. #713

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    Posted on the Facebook page of the Professional Skaters Association (PSA) today:
    Congratulations to the winners of the EDI Awards for Best Performance at the 2012 U.S. Championships in San Jose, CA:

    Ladies - Agnes Zawadzki - SP

  14. #714

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    Agnes? Now that's an interesting choice.

    Who got the men's award?

  15. #715

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_E View Post
    I'm not saying that no lady will ever have both a true lutz and flip but this season, I don't think it will really matter. Considering this has been a topic of conversation for 15+ years and we're still seeing skaters flutzing and lipping, I don't think it will ever really go away.
    There have been ladies with both clean lutzes and flips in the recent past:
    A healthy Kostner
    Rochette
    Emily Hughes
    Agnes Zawadzki, I believe, at present

    And that's right off the top of my head.
    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe.

  16. #716
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    ^Lu Chen? Kerrigan? Baiul? Bonaly?

  17. #717

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    Not to mention Gracie Gold, who has not only done both clean lutz & flip, but 3lz3t and 3F3t at least twice this season.

    And, lest we forget, Rachael Flatt managed a clean 3Lz and a clean 3F combination at Nationals.

    So it is not impossible for US ladies to do jumps off correct edges.

    Rachael, of course, is done for the season, but Gracie still has Junior Worlds.

    And, again, not to mention Tonya Harding and Kristi Yamaguchi.

  18. #718
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    Chris_E said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_E View Post
    Pretty much every top lady either flutzes or lips. So, does it really matter anymore? She'll get -1GOE and leave it at that. Really a pet peeve of mine that everyone points out flutzers but lippers as totally fine.
    Other than Kostner, who hasn't been healthy enough to attempt a lutz in competition lately, none of the ladies listed in the last three posts is a current "top lady."
    Last edited by Vagabond; 02-25-2012 at 04:26 PM.

  19. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Chris_E said:



    Other than Kostner, who hasn't been healthy enough to attempt a lutz in competition lately, none of the ladies listed in the last three posts is a current "top lady," not even Zawadzki, who is going to Worlds.
    Um. Zawadzki isn't going to Worlds AFAIK.

  20. #720
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    ^ not unless Wagner and/or Czisny pulls out

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