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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I think it's interesting that CoP's intentions with the "e" mark were to get skaters to learn the correct entries, however, 99% of the skaters either chose to skip whichever (flip or lutz) jump they had an edge problem with. Flatt is the 1% who actually fixed hers. Miki had the flip in for a while, but then relegated it to the sp only before dumping it entirely. Rochette began reworking hers in 03/04 before CoP. Anyone else?
    Once Miki fixed her lip it become less consistent, and as a result starting doing the loop in her SP (very smart). Supposedly Alissa's flip is on a better edge now, but it was hard to tell from the angle when she did it at TEB.

  2. #42
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    Tara Lipinski also landed 6 or 7 triples in her LP quite often (although like so many others on here, she did have a flutz):

    1995 US Nationals, Jr div. LP: 6 triples (two loops, two salchows, one toe-loop, one flip-- her first in competition, and late in the program)
    1996 Jr. Worlds LP: 6 triples (two loops, two salchows, one toe-loop, one lutz/flutz, fell on flip though)
    1996 U.S. Nationals LP: 6 triples (fell and under-rotated on attempted 7th triple, a loop in 2nd half of 3s-3lp)
    1996 Worlds QR ? (she was 2nd in her group, only beaten by Midori Ito)
    1996 Worlds LP: 7 triples

    1996 Skate Canada LP: 6 triples (step out on 3 flip)
    1997 US Nationals LP: 7 triples (including 3lp-3lp)
    1996/1997 Champion Series Final (now the GPF) LP: 7 triples (but opened up on one of her 2x)
    1997 Worlds QR: no idea, but I think she was clean, she did the 3lp/3lp for sure
    1997 Worlds LP: 7 triples
    1997 Hershey Kisses Pro-Am LP: 7 triples

    1997 Skate America LP: 6 triples (fall on lutz, extra steps between 3t-3s sequence)
    1997/1998 Champion Series Final LP: 7 triples
    1998 US Nationals LP: 6 clean triples (obviously under-rotated loop on back half of 3-3)
    1998 Olympics LP: 7 triples

    Like Kwan, a "bad" skate from her usually still had about 5 triples.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I think it's interesting that CoP's intentions with the "e" mark were to get skaters to learn the correct entries,
    I think it's really hard for skaters to relearn a jump by the time they get to senior level. Kudos to those who do.

    Maybe the intention was, at least in part, to encourage skaters coming up the ranks to learn the jump correctly in the first place rather than rushing to get a flawed version as soon as possible and then have to correct it (or live with the flaw forever).

    But rather than intending to produce certain behavior on the part of the skaters, I'd say it's more likely that the intention was to reward skaters who execute the jumps with correct technique (or penalize those who make technical errors, whichever way you want to think about it).

    Knowing what the rewards/penalties will be, the skaters have more than one choice about how to plan their training and programs to take that into account.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I think it's really hard for skaters to relearn a jump by the time they get to senior level. Kudos to those who do.
    That's why I'm really surprise at kids and junior skaters.
    At my rink, there are some young skaters (12 y.o.) who Flutz so badly on double jumps. But the coach never says anything.

  5. #45
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    This flutz/lip discussion feels a little irrelevant here. If we're including Zayak programs with four triple toes, then we should include (cleanly landed) flutzes and lips too - they are still triples, right?

    Six clean triple programs are too numerous to mention, even Kiira Korpi can manage that. If you don't believe me, here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVcgAQBWJnY

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I think it's really hard for skaters to relearn a jump by the time they get to senior level. Kudos to those who do.

    Maybe the intention was, at least in part, to encourage skaters coming up the ranks to learn the jump correctly in the first place rather than rushing to get a flawed version as soon as possible and then have to correct it (or live with the flaw forever).

    But rather than intending to produce certain behavior on the part of the skaters, I'd say it's more likely that the intention was to reward skaters who execute the jumps with correct technique (or penalize those who make technical errors, whichever way you want to think about it).

    Knowing what the rewards/penalties will be, the skaters have more than one choice about how to plan their training and programs to take that into account.
    It's been 6 years since the edge penalty has been introduced which is longer than many senior careers and I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that the younger skaters are taking their entry edges more seriously. CoP is no longer the "new" judging system.

  7. #47

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    The point is, even if they try to get correct lutz takeoffs, they may not be able to succeed. Triple lutz is a very difficult jump for most female skaters. Lutz takeoff may be easier than flip for some women and for some men.

    Individual skaters can work for years to achieve a correct jump and not succeed. Maybe the best they can do is a choice between relatively consistent triple flutz, relatively consistent double lutz, or 2.5 lutz landed on two feet (i.e., worth less than a successful double lutz).

    So then they can choose to do no lutz at all (except in junior short programs when required), include planned double lutzes, or include planned triple flutzes knowing they'll be penalized for the incorrect takeoff. Their choice, given the rules and the skills they have to work with.

    They know that skaters who can do correct triple lutzes will get more points. But just knowing that isn't going to make the jump happen. At a certain point they have to make decisions about training priorities, and chasing a jump they have little hope of perfecting may not be the best use of their time.

    Similarly, skaters know that successful triple axels are worth (a lot) more than double axels. But if a skater can't do a triple axel, s/he can't do it. It's a very difficult jump. They can work for years to try to get it rotated and consistently landed, but many will never succeed.

    Should they throw out all the time spent working on other skills they actually can succeed with in pursuit of one element that appears not to be within their reach?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    The point is, even if they try to get correct lutz takeoffs, they may not be able to succeed. Triple lutz is a very difficult jump for most female skaters. Lutz takeoff may be easier than flip for some women and for some men.

    Individual skaters can work for years to achieve a correct jump and not succeed. Maybe the best they can do is a choice between relatively consistent triple flutz, relatively consistent double lutz, or 2.5 lutz landed on two feet (i.e., worth less than a successful double lutz).

    So then they can choose to do no lutz at all (except in junior short programs when required), include planned double lutzes, or include planned triple flutzes knowing they'll be penalized for the incorrect takeoff. Their choice, given the rules and the skills they have to work with.

    They know that skaters who can do correct triple lutzes will get more points. But just knowing that isn't going to make the jump happen. At a certain point they have to make decisions about training priorities, and chasing a jump they have little hope of perfecting may not be the best use of their time.

    Similarly, skaters know that successful triple axels are worth (a lot) more than double axels. But if a skater can't do a triple axel, s/he can't do it. It's a very difficult jump. They can work for years to try to get it rotated and consistently landed, but many will never succeed.

    Should they throw out all the time spent working on other skills they actually can succeed with in pursuit of one element that appears not to be within their reach?
    I think you underestimate the skaters. I do think a true lutz (or true flip as the case may be) is possible for most elite senior skaters. Also, and this is just me, but I'd rather see a good attempt with a minor edge problem than no jump at all.

    I also think the ISU should consider rotating the solo jump in the short program between loop, flip, lutz and maybe even sal (as they do in juniors) as a double or triple. It would be a strong incentive to work on all triple jump entries, and if it's absolutely impossible, do a double or take the edge call and try to make up ground in other areas. It would add a more "do or die" element that's been missing from the sp as well as encourage skaters to attempt jumps that aren't necessarily their favorites.

  9. #49
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    Mao Asada has plenty og performances with 6 and 7 tripples:

    2010 worlds: 6 tripples (two 3A)
    2010 4cc: 6 tripples (two 3A)
    2011 4cc: 7 tripples
    2008 worlds: 6 tripples (two 3-3)
    2008 4cc: 7 tripples(two 3-3 and 3A)
    2010 NHK: 6 tripples
    2007 worlds: 7 tripples (3A and 3-3)
    2010 nationals: 6 tripples
    2009 nationals: 6 tripples
    2008 nationals: 7 tripples

    and plenty more....... actually most of Mao's FS performances have 6 or 7 tripples program!
    Last edited by Amy03; 01-11-2012 at 08:21 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I also think the ISU should consider rotating the solo jump in the short program between loop, flip, lutz and maybe even sal (as they do in juniors) as a double or triple. It would be a strong incentive to work on all triple jump entries, and if it's absolutely impossible, do a double or take the edge call and try to make up ground in other areas. It would add a more "do or die" element that's been missing from the sp as well as encourage skaters to attempt jumps that aren't necessarily their favorites.
    I would encourage this too. I liked seeing the differences in programs when a skater had to do their nemesis jump in the SP or risk only a double. I also liked when the combination had to have a 2loop in it, because it really separated the men from the boys, and you'd see a crazy amount of different combos. I think it was 78 Worlds when 2flip was required in the combo and you even had a skater attempt 3sal landed on a left inside edge going into a 2flip. Could get interesting.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by kukkura View Post
    The first seven triple woman was of course Midori, but did she ever do eight?
    Yes, I'm pretty sure her 1989 and 1990 Worlds programs had 8 triples, and likely her 1991 Lalique program as well. I would guess there are some other programs from fall competitions and Japanese Nationals when she did the triple axel and 7 other triples as well.

    Midori's 6+ triple programs would be difficult to count since so many of hers wouldn't have been televised, but she was so unbelievably consistent pre-1991 that I'd be surprised if she didn't have the highest number...it's such a shame that she started to have injury and inconsistency problems right when figures were eliminated. She could have been unbeatable for several years by today's standards.

  12. #52
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    I would also like to see the solo jump in the SP rotate between lutz, flip, loop and salchow (which I would like to include because it would be nice to see skaters work on it to really make it 'sing' as DButton would say). This was the case in the 80s.

    Slightly off topic, but I would also love to see the flying spin rotate between flying camel, death drop, forward flying sit, and flying reverse change sit--is this last one the one also named an "axel sit spin?"

    I feel that the way the flying spin is currently being judged causes the emphasis to be on position variation, change of edge, etc. (COP stuff) and not necessarily on the height and "fly" of the spin. Maybe if all the skaters in a particular competition were performing the same entrance, that emphasis could change. When I go back and watch old SPs from the 80s I am always blown away by how much better flying spins were timed to the music, how much huger the fly was, and how it actually seemed like an important element with most top skaters.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I also think the ISU should consider rotating the solo jump in the short program between loop, flip, lutz and maybe even sal (as they do in juniors) as a double or triple. It would be a strong incentive to work on all triple jump entries, and if it's absolutely impossible, do a double or take the edge call and try to make up ground in other areas. It would add a more "do or die" element that's been missing from the sp as well as encourage skaters to attempt jumps that aren't necessarily their favorites.
    The problem with it would be : if I am a skater who particularly doesn't like one jump, I wouldn't win anything no matter what. Then the year after, with another jump, I could.
    Imagine on an Olympic year : the choosen jump would be just so important.

    Anyway, I agree that the SP needs to change to be more do or die. Or at least, something different than the LP. We need to evaluate something different in the 2 programs. Actually, LP is a longer SP. It doesn't make sense to have two programs like that.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    The problem with it would be : if I am a skater who particularly doesn't like one jump, I wouldn't win anything no matter what. Then the year after, with another jump, I could.
    Imagine on an Olympic year : the choosen jump would be just so important.
    How about yrs 1-3 after an Olympics it's a mandated loop, flip, or lutz, Olympic season free choice for triple in the SP?

    Out of interest, I don't watch much junior competition but has a Junior skater ever done a different jump to the one mandated in the SP? If they were to do a different jump, is the entire element discounted (like an extra combo) or do they receive the base value with -3s across the board?

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    How about yrs 1-3 after an Olympics it's a mandated loop, flip, or lutz, Olympic season free choice for triple in the SP?
    Or alternating between the solo jump being an edge or pick jump of the skater's choice, and for the years the solo jump is an edge jump, the combination must contain a pick jump (and vice versa).

    I do miss the required double jump forming part of the combination in the short program. The double flip and the double loop made results during those years particularly interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Out of interest, I don't watch much junior competition but has a Junior skater ever done a different jump to the one mandated in the SP? If they were to do a different jump, is the entire element discounted (like an extra combo) or do they receive the base value with -3s across the board?
    If it's a completely different jump, then it gets no credit.

    If there's some confusion as to whether it's a lutz or a flip, the tech panel will probably call it as the jump it's supposed to be, with an edge call.

    Also, if the skater does the same jump (e.g., double loop) in both the combination and solo jump, then one of them will get no credit. That would most likely happen if one of them was planned as a triple but doubled in the performance. Triples are not required in those elements for juniors.

    As with seniors, if a jump is singled in the junior SP, then it gets base value for the single and -3 across the board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    If it's a completely different jump, then it gets no credit.

    If there's some confusion as to whether it's a lutz or a flip, the tech panel will probably call it as the jump it's supposed to be, with an edge call.

    Also, if the skater does the same jump (e.g., double loop) in both the combination and solo jump, then one of them will get no credit. That would most likely happen if one of them was planned as a triple but doubled in the performance. Triples are not required in those elements for juniors.

    As with seniors, if a jump is singled in the junior SP, then it gets base value for the single and -3 across the board.
    Thanks for the information.

    Just thinking aloud, but if a skater has a flutz, what would likely happen if they do that jump the year that a flip is mandated? Technically it comes off the inside edge (hence the "e" when they do it as a lutz), since the solo jump must be preceded by steps (assuming its the same for juniors), then it's easier to "disguise" the entrance.

    I'm thinking since the caller sometimes struggles to identify the jumps (i'm thinking of the canadian pairs skaters who have been credited with both SBS triple Flips and SBS triple Lutzes when executing the same SBS jumps in different phases of the competition), planned content sheet coupled with take off from an actual inside edge could lead to getting away with it?

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Thanks for the information.

    Just thinking aloud, but if a skater has a flutz, what would likely happen if they do that jump the year that a flip is mandated? Technically it comes off the inside edge (hence the "e" when they do it as a lutz), since the solo jump must be preceded by steps (assuming its the same for juniors), then it's easier to "disguise" the entrance.
    Actually, it would be easy to distinguish both jumps (Flutz and Flip). If you can't, that because they are both the same.
    That's what I don't understand about this rule. A Flutz should be a Lutz from an outside edge switching to a flat at the very end before the take off. Not a clear inside edge !

    For example, Alena Leonova is a mystery for me : http://youtu.be/lNPAoEjrsxk?t=1m52s
    She does a mohawk right before the jump. So, she is on an inside edge, a Flip, end of story. Why they called it a Lutz (e) ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    For example, Alena Leonova is a mystery for me : http://youtu.be/lNPAoEjrsxk?t=1m52s
    She does a mohawk right before the jump. So, she is on an inside edge, a Flip, end of story. Why they called it a Lutz (e) ?
    It looks to me that she clearly is on an outside edge after the turn (i.e., it's a choctaw, not a mohawk), and then rocks over to inside at the last split second. Tricky call, but Lutz (e) is probably correct. Was there also a < call?

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Just thinking aloud, but if a skater has a flutz, what would likely happen if they do that jump the year that a flip is mandated? Technically it comes off the inside edge (hence the "e" when they do it as a lutz), since the solo jump must be preceded by steps (assuming its the same for juniors), then it's easier to "disguise" the entrance.
    If she can do flutz from steps and can't do flip from steps (i.e., they have to start on an outside edge and then rock over) then that's probably the best approach for her to take.

    If she can't do a flip at all and can't do a triple flutz except from a long back outside edge with last-second change, then she's in trouble.

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