Team competition at Sochi

[flowerpower]

Hey, I didn't necessarily say it was a bad thing, but it changes the way we look at Olympic success in the sport. Swimming hands out zillions of medals, but figure skating only a few, so the figure skating ones are much harder to get, relatively speaking. Maybe making more FS medals available could have some benefits - encourage people to stay in the sport, encourage countries to develop teams in all disciplines, IDK. There are pros and cons. But I think it diminishes the impact of the individual medals, which take such a elite level of excellence to attain.

[Cherub721]

Should that matter? The weakest gymnast on a gymnastics team is good enough to be necessary for the team. In the final, the last place finisher gets six points for the team. A team medalist without an individual medal doesn't take away from the winner of the all-around.

I was thinking about this and I feel like skating is a bit different because of that ranking system. In gymnastics, being selected for the team is a big deal because it means you bring value to the team in terms of your score somewhere, even if it's just one vault or one beam routine. In a swimming or running relay, your speed contributes to the team overall finish. Because the score is cumulative, everyone literally is contributing. In the figure skating competition, one can "contribute" pretty much just by existing (especially if there is no minimum score requirement, which I'm guessing there won't be for team, considering the federations already have been told they can send a skater in disciplines in which they didn't qualify on their own). You can theoretically skate an absolute crap program, finish last in the segment, and still earn the same points for your team as someone in another discipline who finished last in another segment with a great skate. In a gymnastics comp or a race if you absolutely bomb, you will drag the entire team down - if they do win, it's because everyone else made up for it.

I still think this competition would work better using cumulative IJS points. I know that's imperfect too, because countries that happen to be stronger in higher-scoring events (like better men than ladies) will get an advantage, but since every country gets to compete one skater per discipline per SP/LP, it's fair overall.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

^ There were times in which a gymnast wasn't used at all to win a competition under the 6-3-3 format. I think the Female Chinese team in 2008 was the first to do so. Thank goodness the Americans repeated that in 2012 because it was weird when a gymnast like Courtney McCool or Samantha Peszek won a silver medal without doing anything in the team final. However, I guess it matters that McCool's UB and VT scores contributed in the preliminaries at Athens for them to qualify for the team final and although Peszek's UB score was dropped in the preliminaries, she scored the same as Sloan whose score was used.

[flowerpower]

^^
Good points!

Someone remind me again, what was the rationale for adding this team event? So audiences can see the same performances twice, and controversy can be generated when the marking does or doesn't align, and skaters become fatigued before their individual events?

[Cherub721]

^^
Good points!

Someone remind me again, what was the rationale for adding this team event? So audiences can see the same performances twice, and controversy can be generated when the marking does or doesn't align, and skaters become fatigued before their individual events?

I'm sure it was with good intentions, but ugh, we'll hear about it all forever "POLL: If the team event had happened after the ladies final would Mao Asada have skated in the ladies final like she did in the team event and would she have beaten Yu-Na"

[manhn]

I thought they added the team event so Plushenko can pass Dick Button as the best male skater, like, ever. Or maybe they want Tessa & Scott to kick over Grishuk/Platov. Or they really love Ross Miner and think he deserves an Olympic medal more than Kurt Browning.

[Ziggy]

As far as WTT is concerned, Japan is qualified automatically as a host country. I assume they will manage the 6th place in pairs automatically by just showing up at the arena.

Takahashi/Kihara might be able to skate come kind of program as well by then. Although not sure if it would be the best idea to show the judges your Group 1 lifts.

I barely watch swimming. And gymnastics just sucks. I have no desire to see figure skating become either sport.

I don't like something so NOBODY ELSE SHOULD HAVE IT.

[kwanfan1818]

In a gymnastics comp or a race if you absolutely bomb, you will drag the entire team down - if they do win, it's because everyone else made up for it.

Wouldn't that be the case with placement points to the extent that they are like ordinals, i.e., if you're second by a sliver or second by a canyon, you're still one point away from each of the skaters people in first and third (or a constant fraction)? Especially in the SP/SD, since points are cumulative, a bomb is huge, since last gets 1 point and first gets 10. In the FS/FD, last gets 6 and first gets 10. They other skaters have to make up the deficit for a weak link.

I still think this competition would work better using cumulative IJS points. I know that's imperfect too, because countries that happen to be stronger in higher-scoring events (like better men than ladies) will get an advantage, but since every country gets to compete one skater per discipline per SP/LP, it's fair overall.

I think you put your finger on it: they don't want Men's to skew all of the other disciplines. Just some quick and dirty calculations:

Even if PCS weren't factored by .8 in Ladies, the Top 6 at Euros would have ranged from 221.24 - 173.45. The Men ranged from 274.87 - 211.88. Individual scores by placement gave a 15-29% advantage to the Men, and overall, there was a 244 point advantage, or 20% on average.

Looking at the Top 10 from 2012 Worlds -- I know some countries had more than one, but the range should be somewhat similar,

Total Men: 2410.64
Total Ladies: 1677.95, 43.67% less than Men's
Total Pairs: 1860.83, 29.55% less than Men's
Total Dance: 1606.57, 50.05% less than Mens

They could do a weighting system and either create a multiplier for each discipline ahead of time, or, they could create a weighting algorithm that uses actual SP/SD results to balance the disciplines, but that could look ugly.

^ There were times in which a gymnast wasn't used at all to win a competition under the 6-3-3 format. I think the Female Chinese team in 2008 was the first to do so. Thank goodness the Americans repeated that in 2012 because it was weird when a gymnast like Courtney McCool or Samantha Peszek won a silver medal without doing anything in the team final. However, I guess it matters that McCool's UB and VT scores contributed in the preliminaries at Athens for them to qualify for the team final and although Peszek's UB score was dropped in the preliminaries, she scored the same as Sloan whose score was used.

In team sports, does a player have to play for at least a minute to get a medal? Or is being on the team enough to earn one?

I read somewhere on FSU that the IOC came up with the idea of adding team events and asked the sports federations to propose something. The IOC chose two of however many entries, and figure skating is one of them. I can't remember the reason that they wouldn't let skating have separate medals for each segment, and one for the cumulative effort.

[julieann]

During Kwan's heyday, I remember imagining a team event, but based on discipline. Like every country would be allowed to have 6 skaters in each discipline and they add the top five placements of each team. Maybe 6 would have been too much and five would be better with the top 4 counting. Imagine a team of Kwan, Cohen, Hughes, Nikodinov, McDonough, and Kirk vs. Slutskaya, Butryskaya, Volchkova, Sokolova, Oblasova, and Nelidina vs. Suguri, Onda, Arakawa, Suzuki, Nakano, and Wakamatsu (Ando placed third at 2001-2002 Japanese Championships but was probably too young to compete at those Olympics), etc.

I think the Russian Ice Dance teams and pairs would have dominated the team event if it was separated by discipline. I wonder if skaters would stick around longer or if it bolster participation if there was a team event that allowed skaters more opportunity to vie for a medal. Then it could be like gymnastics where the skaters in the top three, two, or one spot (depending if the ISU used the same qualifying slot procedure as they use now) of the team competition would then qualify for the individual competition.

I would have rather they seperated the sp and fs but they won't. The IOC won't allow a cumulative medal, they have to skate to win so they would have to skate the short: get a medal. Skate the free: get a medal then skate the short and free for a cumulative medal. Some so-so skaters will become Olympic medalists in the team portion but that's the sport.

[Cherub721]

Wouldn't that be the case with placement points to the extent that they are like ordinals, i.e., if you're second by a sliver or second by a canyon, you're still one point away from each of the skaters people in first and third (or a constant fraction)? Especially in the SP/SD, since points are cumulative, a bomb is huge, since last gets 1 point and first gets 10. In the FS/FD, last gets 6 and first gets 10. They other skaters have to make up the deficit for a weak link.

Yes, but I'm thinking along the lines of countries where there is a known weakness in one area. If Mao Asada bombs and places 5th when she could've been 1st, that's a big hit. OTOH, the Reeds would be expected to place 5th in dance, should Japan make the final, so there is no real impetus to skate well other than for personal satisfaction. The gap between them, RUS/USA/CAN/FRA is so large that it doesn't matter how well they skate. In the case of say a gymnast who is weak on floor, but still selected for the final, each tumbling pass she lands is contributing points to the team and each deduction is hurting the team (in the 3 up 3 count scenario). I find this to be more sporting and interesting than the idea that it doesn't really matter how she performs because she's getting a last place ordinal anyway.

I think you put your finger on it: they don't want Men's to skew all of the other disciplines. Just some quick and dirty calculations:
They could do a weighting system and either create a multiplier for each discipline ahead of time, or, they could create a weighting algorithm that uses actual SP/SD results to balance the disciplines, but that could look ugly.

How does it work in gymnastics? I know it's not weighted, but does it turn out that some events score higher than others by their very nature? And the countries that happen to excel at those events are just lucky? Perhaps the advantage is not as much as your example of dance which is worth 50% less than the men, though. I wouldn't want the men's event to be the focal point of the team competition, but it would be more fun to have each jump, each spin, each edge call, each lift, each level really matter to the team's overall score instead of just mattering to the extent that it helps achieve a certain placement which contributes the ordinal to the team.

[Cherub721]

I would have rather they seperated the sp and fs but they won't. The IOC won't allow a cumulative medal, they have to skate to win so they would have to skate the short: get a medal. Skate the free: get a medal then skate the short and free for a cumulative medal. Some so-so skaters will become Olympic medalists in the team portion but that's the sport.

I don't really see the need for separate SP and FS medals, since both segments test the same skills (how well you can integrate jumps, spins, footwork, and other elements into a performance with choreography and music on the ice). It could have worked in ice dancing with medals for CD/OD/FD because the skills performed in each are subtly different. And I agree with the IOC, giving two medals for the same performance really doesn't make sense.

Different medals for just jumps, just spins, just skating skills (figures), just interpretative/choreography would make more sense, but I don't think we'll see it anytime soon.

The team event is of course testing the same skills as the SP and FS, which I find a little redundant, especially since they will be mostly skating the exact same programs (I could see someone like Lambiel switching it up, but probably not the current skaters). But there is precedence for this in gymnastics with both a team final and an all around final testing the same combo of skills.

[morqet]

In the case of say a gymnast who is weak on floor, but still selected for the final, each tumbling pass she lands is contributing points to the team and each deduction is hurting the team (in the 3 up 3 count scenario). I find this to be more sporting and interesting than the idea that it doesn't really matter how she performs because she's getting a last place ordinal anyway.

I agree with you - I remember the WTT last year where Cynthia Phaneuf skated appallingly yet still won a bronze medal as part of the team, as the system of giving points for placements couldn't reflect the gulf in what she did & what most of the other ladies managed. It annoyed me at the time, but not that much because in the grand scheme of things WTT doesn't count for much, but it would be really depressing to think that someone could turn in a performance like that at the Olmypics and still come away with a medal.

How does it work in gymnastics? I know it's not weighted, but does it turn out that some events score higher than others by their very nature? And the countries that happen to excel at those events are just lucky? Perhaps the advantage is not as much as your example of dance which is worth 50% less than the men, though.

There are some events which tend to be higher scoring than others - vault is normally the one where it's easiest to pick up points, but equally it is possible for a country that is weaker on that one piece to make up that difference on other apparatus, like the GB team on Pommel Horse. The differences are single points or even just tenths. Not like in skating, where if you had cumulative points, there would be almost no way for a team winning ladies and dance to out rank a team winning men and pairs.

[julieann]

I thought they added the team event so Plushenko can pass Dick Button as the best male skater.

From now on it will always be mentioned as being and individual medal vs. team medal. It will lose some luster. 'EP has won 3 Olympic individual medals and 1 team medal.'

IMO Plushenko already surpassed Button simply because the sport had become much more difficult.

I don't really see the need for separate SP and FS medals, since both segments test the same skills

Then maybe we should get rid of the short all together and just have one program.

[professordeb]

I think I will hold this "team" event in the same esteem in which I hold the World Team event; low priority and not worth the paper the rules are printed upon.

I think one of the most stupid ideas this federation has come up with is having the team event before the individual events. As others have pointed out, this can open a whole can of worms and lead to not just headaches but possible migraines

Has Speedy been talking Gary Betteman of the NHL on how best to screw over their product? Kinda seems that way to me.

[Zemgirl]

I agree with you - I remember the WTT last year where Cynthia Phaneuf skated appallingly yet still won a bronze medal as part of the team, as the system of giving points for placements couldn't reflect the gulf in what she did & what most of the other ladies managed. It annoyed me at the time, but not that much because in the grand scheme of things WTT doesn't count for much, but it would be really depressing to think that someone could turn in a performance like that at the Olmypics and still come away with a medal.

Why does it matter? Do all the gymnasts who win team medals perform well? Do all the competitors in show jumping and eventing, both human and equine? Is every member of every medal winning basketball, handball, water polo, soccer and field hockey team making an equal contribution? Of course not.

I agree with those who think that having the team event before the individual events is unwise. But FWIW, I'm not sure that the blame for this lies with the ISU.

[umronnie]

I think I will hold this "team" event in the same esteem in which I hold the World Team event; low priority and not worth the paper the rules are printed upon.

I think one of the most stupid ideas this federation has come up with is having the team event before the individual events. As others have pointed out, this can open a whole can of worms and lead to not just headaches but possible migraines

Has Speedy been talking Gary Betteman of the NHL on how best to screw over their product? Kinda seems that way to me.

That's the way it's done in Gymnastic, right? Team competition comes before the individual all-around. Or was it just in London?

[morqet]

Why does it matter? Do all the gymnasts who win team medals perform well? Do all the competitors in show jumping and eventing, both human and equine? Is every member of every medal winning basketball, handball, water polo, soccer and field hockey team making an equal contribution? Of course not.

I agree with those who think that having the team event before the individual events is unwise. But FWIW, I'm not sure that the blame for this lies with the ISU.

If a gymnast bombed like Phaneuf bombed, or a competitor in show jumping knocked down a ton of fences it would be highly unlikely that their team would be able to get on the podium, because they would make such a poor contribution to the cumulative score. Of course not everyone will make an exactly equal contribution, but you couldn't be that bad and still end up winning team medal.
However, the way they're proposing to do the team event means there's no difference in the contribution between someone finishing last by 30+ points in one event, and a tight 5 way fight in another event with say no more than 10 points covering all the entrants. The last place finisher in both cases would add exactly the same number of points to their team score. A country which is strong in 3 events can get away with doing no more than bothering to turn up in the 4th. That doesn't seem right to me.

[Cherub721]

However, the way they're proposing to do the team event means there's no difference in the contribution between someone finishing last by 30+ points in one event, and a tight 5 way fight in another event with say no more than 10 points covering all the entrants. The last place finisher in both cases would add exactly the same number of points to their team score. A country which is strong in 3 events can get away with doing no more than bothering to turn up in the 4th. That doesn't seem right to me.

Another thing is let's say Canada places second to Russia in pairs by 30 points, and Canada also finishes second to the US in dance by .25 points. Is it right that Canada would receive the same amount of points for both finishes?

[Ziggy]

Another thing is let's say Canada places second to Russia in pairs by 30 points, and Canada also finishes second to the US in dance by .25 points. Is it right that Canada would receive the same amount of points for both finishes?

This. They really should use cumulative points.

[maatTheViking]

If a gymnast bombed like Phaneuf bombed, or a competitor in show jumping knocked down a ton of fences it would be highly unlikely that their team would be able to get on the podium, because they would make such a poor contribution to the cumulative score. Of course not everyone will make an exactly equal contribution, but you couldn't be that bad and still end up winning team medal.
However, the way they're proposing to do the team event means there's no difference in the contribution between someone finishing last by 30+ points in one event, and a tight 5 way fight in another event with say no more than 10 points covering all the entrants. The last place finisher in both cases would add exactly the same number of points to their team score. A country which is strong in 3 events can get away with doing no more than bothering to turn up in the 4th. That doesn't seem right to me.

In dressage (and, I believe, in show jumping and three-day eventing), before London it was X equipages on each team, drop lowest score, X-1 counts. I always thought this was strange, in principle you could have a dressage team with one person placing 30th individually and still end up with a medal, if your team mates are doing well. I guess the principle is that anyone can have a bad day, and having only high scoring athletes will statistically increase your medal chances over having one average. In London, the dressage teams were 3 equipages only, a country could qualify a 4th, but their score never counted. Interestingly, the medals ended up going to the expected countries anyway, I don't think it actually changed the outcome.

I think people maybe put too much stock on whether someone should be 'allowed' to be an Olympic medalist. In the end, I see a team medal as a award for a country. While the girls on the US women's gymnastic team are great, I don't see the medal won by these persons, but by the US. Of course it means a team member is a gold medalist, but to me being a medalist or no is not that big of a deal - being an Olympian in it self is impressive. I think the difference between the Olympics and World meets are that Olympics are much more about the total strength of the entire delegation.

You can also say it is already unfair - whatever selection criteria JSF comes up with for the Olympic team will impact the top 4 JP men's chances of an Olympic medal much more than anything else.